Explanation for decline in MB quality - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

cmac2012 · #16 04-01-2021, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 75Sv1

One advantage the Japanese had or have is they take a base car and then upgrade it. So, they have a greater total of parts to spread the production cost over. Some of their luxury offering are a rebranded product. The Big Three did that too. Much of that did not go over well. Honda used basically the same motor from their sedans in the NSX. Not quite the performance level of say a Ferrari, but close and the drivability was much better.
I'd also see some of MB, BMW etc. as more perceived as a Buick in their native land. MBs were or are used as Taxis over there. I can remember one neighbor had 2-3 Porsche 911s parked on the curb. He club raced them.

Not trying to argue but I was always curious about the NSX. Did a search, found this on Wikipedia. The second paragraph is the one that really caught my eye. Further reading indicates that the V6 was used in sedans but not often:

Quote:

The origins of the NSX trace back to 1984, with the HP-X (Honda Pininfarina eXperimental) concept, which was a mid-engine 3.0 L V6 engine rear wheel drive sports car. Honda committed to the project, with the intention of meeting or exceeding the performance of the then V8 engine Ferrari range, while offering reliability and a lower price point.

Gordon Murray, the designer of the McLaren F1 supercar, stated that he used the NSX as the inspiration for the F1 after test driving many high performance cars and finding the NSX chassis performed the best. Murray stated that the design was "monumental" to sportscar design. He found that the car could easily have handled more power and attempted to convince Honda to develop a more powerful engine, but they declined. This resulted in Murray developing the F1 with a BMW engine, but he was so fond of the NSX that he bought one for personal use and drove it for 75,000 km. Murray stated that the NSX was "dear to his heart."

Just found two on Craigslist, asking prices around $60 to $70K. I had no idea they were thought of that well. My guess is they'd be too small for me inside (6'0"). I felt cramped in a prelude I rode in once. Would be neat to drive one after reading that though.

merc lover · #17 04-01-2021, 10:16 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omkJmE1NwDc

lietuviai · #18 04-02-2021, 08:44 PM

I thought about an NSX a few years ago but when I saw the prices I decided to ...

lietuviai · #19 04-02-2021, 08:52 PM

Oh and about the quality in Mercs, yes I saw a huge decline from going to a 87 300D from an 85. The quality was really bad in the W124. Lots of the interior trim was falling apart in it that in the older car with higher mileage and use didn't look so bad. That OM603 engine, don't even get me started. Also the transmission leaked like a sieve. I swear some the electronics were designed by Lucas.
I fixed what I could or felt like it and then I quickly got rid of it. You don't see that many of them for a good reason.

pawoSD · #20 04-02-2021, 09:18 PM

MB quality did decline for a while, but not in all aspects of the car, mostly interior/electronics.

The current crop of cars from ~2009 onward have been quite solid. Especially when you consider the capability and complexity of them compared to the old ones, its amazing how reliable they actually are.

My GLK250 and Metris have been essentially problem free for years....by far the lowest maintenance/repair needs of any MB's I've owned other than my W210, but that one is in rough shape these days due to rust. My GLK is closing in on 100k miles and everything works, and it still drives like new. My Metris I bought new, and now has over 20k on it, zero issues at all, not a single problem so far in almost 3 years. This is to be expected, but isn't the case with all cars. The modern interiors hold up very well, better than any of the previous years in my opinion (meaning vehicles pre-W211 era).

Maintenance is far easier on the newer models, suspensions are more durable and easier to repair, same for the steering, and brakes. Fuel filters/air filters/ oil changes are easy as can be.

Also things like Modern cruise control, LED headlights, etc, are fantastic improvements to drivability. I've also come to like the 722.9 transmission, it shifts well in most situations and is pretty durable.

My brother's E400 covers in excess of 20k miles a year and is rolling about 100k right now....problems since new? Nearly zero. I think the rear window shade needed to be fixed once, and the brakes are due for replacing.

The most needy machine in the family continues to be my dad's W211 wagon....its always got something going wrong. ESP errors, air suspension settling, random M272 engine issues....and its boring as ever to drive, sluggish and thirsty. Mostly just good for distance driving.

Usaguy · #21 04-02-2021, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawoSD

...The modern interiors hold up very well, better than any of the previous years in my opinion (meaning vehicles pre-W211 era...

I would take a w201 190E interior any day over the W204's plastic interior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawoSD

...suspensions are more durable...

If it's air ride then it will break but if it's regular springs then it will be reliable.

This applies to most car makes/models/years.

Hydraulic suspension is a hit and miss

You have reliable systems like old Mb sls and citroen

And then you have the problematic Mb ABC suspension

pawoSD · #22 04-02-2021, 11:39 PM

I had a 1993 W201 for several years....the interior quality on W201's was horrible. The car was awesome, the interior was not aside from the seats themselves. Door cards and coverings peeling off, plastics on the dash/vents falling apart....the upper part of the dash was ok and the wood held up ok, but overall, not even close to today's MBs.

W124 interior quality was far better....I've had both. W201 was the "low cost" MB of the day. Unfortunately the W124 I owned had the M103 engine which is a temperamental monster, but amazing when running properly. My W201 was originally M102 powered until it died and I swapped it to an unkillable OM601. (365k on the engine still running strong when I sold it)

R.Diesel · #23 04-03-2021, 01:26 AM

Found the Troglodytes

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by speednjay

Mb either had to sell $100k cars like Bentley and rolls Royce or cut cost to sell more quantities. It’s just the way things turned out

A RR or Bentley has not been anywhere near 100k for the past 20 years. A Decent non baby Benz today will certainly knock on the door of six figures.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcIdBuRn

The youngest generations are being brought up in a "throw away" world. Things aren't meant to last... they are meant to be cheap and easily replaced in all respects... from basic toys... cars.. tools.. to homes and relationships. It's the way of the world anymore.

Meant to last? Mean like Pintos, Chevelles, Renault 16's and Audi 80's? Or are we talking 70's British manufacturing excellence here?

The average age of passenger cars in the 1970's were 7 years. Today its 12. How does that fit into your theory of young frivoulessness? Oh and the youngsters are the ones driving the oldest of that lot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

It's unfortunate all right. But sheer price is a big motivator. When I bought my '86 SDL the original window sticker from the dealer came with it. $48K new. I did an inflation calculator search, in 2017 dollars came out to $98K. Not too many people are in a position to spend that kind of money.

That's exactly the starting price of an S-class today. The original owner must have been doing well for himself back then just like he would need to today.

Enough with this nonesense. It's played out.

Now, on another note...

If you want the legendary durability that you remember from Mercedes of yore (and on the cheap) look no further than the 3rd world. Yes, 240D still exist around Casablanca, Tripoli, etc. but they are swiftly being replaced by mid nineties to mid 2000's Toyota. The problem for Mercedes is that other manufacturers have found ways to make their cars last 10 or even 20 years as well. Beyond that a vehicle is obsolete. There is no reason to pay a premium for a MB from a durability standpoint. The same thing happened to Volvo and safety. How does one stand out now? The automobile has matured to the point where there really aren't many terrible choices save for maybe a few by the Ciarlatano and recently acquired American subsidiaries (FCA). Their knack for incompetence is simply unshakeable.

I am soon looking to exit the ranks of daily driving old diesel Mercedes. I no longer have time to wrench on anything for any reason other than therapeutic. I have 5 kids and have started commuting much more. I am torn between a two year old Mercedes or Lexus. Do I want the Mercedes now that I can finally afford it? Or do I make the smart choice and go with the car that is more likely to perform in the way that made me admire the three pointed star in the first place?

Usaguy · #24 04-03-2021, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Diesel

Meant to last? Mean like Pintos, Chevelles, Renault 16's and Audi 80's? Or are we talking 70's British manufacturing excellence here?

The average age of passenger cars in the 1970's were 7 years. Today its 12. How does that fit into your theory of young frivoulessness? Oh and the youngsters are the ones driving the oldest of that lot.

Enough with this nonesense both of you. It's played out.

Exactly.

Back then most british and italian cars needed an engine rebuild by 60k miles.

rrgrassi · #25 04-03-2021, 03:41 AM

I was advised to avoid all MB built during the Daimler-Chrysler years.

gmog220d · #26 04-03-2021, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Just found two on Craigslist, asking prices around $60 to $70K. I had no idea they were thought of that well. My guess is they'd be too small for me inside (6'0"). I felt cramped in a prelude I rode in once. Would be neat to drive one after reading that though.

Driving a NSX is a treat! A friend of mine has a '96. He's over 6 feet tall and has no problem fitting in and being comfy. It's kinda like a bigger 1st gen MR2. Handling is superb. I'm impressed by how easy the car is to drive compared to other "hot rods" I've driven. They are "cult status" cars, so if you want one you better get it.

87tdwagen · #27 04-03-2021, 10:27 AM

Enjoy your cars, whatever you have or plan to get, enjoy it soon but dont spend a fortune on new. The Auto industry as we know it is changing and wont come back in our life times.

IMHO the diesel litigation against VW, MB, Fiat etc. was not intended to hold manufacturers environmentally accountable, it was to force industry change...come along or be denied market access. Yes there were wrongs but the claimed environmental damage over the lifetime of the product was far less than the environmental resource savings offered by said product.
Needless to say, the over the top penalties is indicative of forcing a change. The intent is to deny the US (still the single largest car market) an opportunity to adopt diesel as in Europe) and jump straight to electric, saving decades in transition time. Electric is the stated end state, that is clear, VW/Audi have announced the end of new internal combustion engine development this year, by 2030 they plan to be 70% electric, Toyota has indicated similar intentions. By 2040 most western governments will use climate/EPA policies to severely tax combustion engines and drive the rest out of the market, 100% electric.

The auto industry is roughly 120 years old, in that time we have seen multiple energy technologies co-exist, coal, wood-fired steam, electric (1920), peanut oil (diesel), gasoline, refined diesel, etc. but we also witnessed consolidation and standardization around fossil fuels for the better part of the last 90 years. Was this collusion between the auto and energy sectors? Well, yes, given their inter-dependency, one would expect it. Today, we have the same scenario, the push towards electric as a global energy policy is pushing the auto industry in kind.

So enjoy your cars, wrenching and all, I fear we have precious little time left before we are all driving Mercedes badged golf carts, by force of law.

I'm set for now, hopefully the OM642 will make it, but my OM603 W124 likely will...after 34 years of happily chugging along, I think she's earned the right to be called a "keeper"

n3nyong · #28 04-03-2021, 10:35 AM

It’s a business, and the new-car customers have been getting rid of them sooner. So why try to build for the second-third-fourth-etc. owner?

Call me a cynic but it makes good business sense to adapt my highest-profit practice to my buyers behaviors.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

carock · #29 04-03-2021, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyl604

CAROCK - I have a hard time believing that is not an urban myth. Where did you hear that MB is now going 100% electric beginning one year ago? I have to verify before I convince myself that is true.

Just google "mercedes stops internal combustion engine design"

Diesel911 · #30 04-09-2021, 12:28 AM

I can only say what I see in my neighbored and locally. My neighborhood is easily 1/3rd Asian. They seem to have bought a lot of the smaller lower end Mercedes. My gut feeling is it is just because it is a Mercedes (status symbol) just as it used to be a particular US ethnic group used to be to have a Cadillac.

In my neighborhood I would say it is Mercedes successfully competing with the Japanese and other luxury cars. But it is fairly recent.