I am happy with duracool. So happy with the results after doing the A/C in my kids 240d that I removed the 134 from my 300d and converted it to duracool as well. Saw vent temps drop 10 degrees at idle, and 18 on the road. Yes it will burn, and so will ANY oil saturated gas. I would be more worried about the 2 gallons of motor oil being sprayed out of a busted oil cooler than the 12 ounces of duracool in a front end collision.
I have my certification but still can't justify paying $50.00+ for a can of R-12. That is the cost if I want to buy local, less than that on ebay but still no anywhere close to using something else that works just as well.

I for one will be moving to Duracool 12A when my 83D AC system finally gives up. I am going to first try it in my 89 Toyota Corolla It has a very weak A/C system because it is low on refrigerant. I have an associtate who put it in his old Mazda and he is very very happy with it. He says it cools much better than the orginal R12.
As far as flammability Yes it is a hydrocarbon based refrigerant, but I belive the risk is low of a fire incident in your typical motor vehicle crash. I have been to hundreds ( Yes! hundreds ) of MVAs in the last 30 years as a Paramedic. The overall incidence of a fire is very low in a MVA. I can only remember four vehicles burning in 30 years Three were Hyundias and the other was a high speed head on crash between a Chevette and a Saab 900. The Chevette lost and caught fire. I won't buy a Hyundia..
I recently asked my local independant MB shop about the price of R12.. It was $ 70 to $ 80 a pound..... I can not see spending between $ 100.00 and $ 200.00 for refrigerant that used to be one or two dollars a pound. When my 123 's AC finally goes limp I will get any leaks fixed and have a local AC mechanic recharge the system with Duracool. I will let everyone here know how the Toyota does with the conversion

Russ

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1978 300 D 258,000 + miles sold 1995
1983 300 D Turbo 152,000 miles
Thank God for the man who put the white lines on the highway

As I said, I have a concern about the explosive nature of some of these alternates, but THAT'S NOT WHAT KEEPS ME FROM USING THEM.

My concern is that these things are contaminating our recovered R12 supply like crazy.

The ONLY R12 left on the planet is the virgin stuff still on the shelf and what we will be able to recover. Since most of these alternates are used with the same fittings, it is common for them to be recovered into a vessel of R12 which CONTAMINATES THE WHOLE VESSEL.

If we could continue to recover successfully, then as the quantity of cars left on the road requiring 12 decreases, then the price would go back down due to lack of demand. But if the stuff continues to get CONTAMINATED, by these alternates, then 12 will REMAIN expensive.

So suit yourself, even if it is at the expense of those of us who want to use R12.

Have a great day,

There is a simple solution to Larry's concern. When a person converts to Duracool, simply label the system indelibly: THIS IS NOT R-12. If someone contaminates their r-12 after that, it's their fault.

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

r-12 is still available in Mexico and several other countries. Only in this country under the previous love a blow-job administration was it totally banned. r12a or duracool by trade name is a great replacement. Lower head pressure, no greenhouse gasses etc. Even the Communist (green) Party is in favor of it as is Green Peace. Stuff has been used world wide for decades, only in the USA where Dow Chemical is screwed out of cash is there a problem. Of course Dow is one of the reasons trees and not hemp is used for paper, and smoking pot will get you inside a federal prison faster than murder will most of the time.
Who cares if current stocks of r12 are contaminated. I have yet to see an A/C shop in Florida that will use reclaimed r12 to fill a system. Even if they do they charge you the "virgin" price for the stuff. Most if not all want to "upgrade" your car to 134a and that just does not work here. It will work out on the road, but in town it sucks. As I have found in real life use in central Florida in these cars 134a is less than marginal. r12 is pretty good, r12a (duracool) is equal to r12 freon and less than 1/6th the cost. 134a runs at almost 3x the pressure of r12. It puts a hell of a strain on your entire 20 year old system. You can feel the difference between 134a and r12a not only in cooling but in load on the engine.

Oh fun, another AC thread! Actually I'm impressed, most of the information is pretty accurate this time around.

First, I'm a huge proponent of sticking with R-12 if at all humanly possible. Get the license to buy it yourself or find the cheapest AC shop in town to do the work for you. R134a is acceptable in cars that had it installed from the factory, AND reside in cool climates (northern USA). Otherwise it mostly sucks for those of us who deal with very hot and/or humid summers (like me, 110F). There are no valid "environmental" reasons why R-12 is bad... do some serious research on the subject and you'll find lots of political and business reasons though.

The problem with the R-134a conversion "Death Kits" is that they don't remove the mineral oil, and they add liquid sewage that they call oil. The oil is the big problem. They add some PAG (?) to the system and fill it with 134 and call it good - yeah right! The ONLY proper way to convert is to totally flush the old oil from every component, including removing the compressor & flushing that too (with the new oil). Then you need to pull vacuum on the system for a couple hours with a proper AC pump (the Harbor Freight venturi type WILL NOT work in this case), add the new 134-happy oil, and finally recharge (oh, and don't forget a new receiver/drier.) Does anyone do all this when converting? Hell no. Probably less than 1% I bet. Takes too long!!

PAG/POE oil (what R-134a requires) is terribly, horribly hygroscopic - it pulls water out of the air. And when it does, it makes HCl (hydrochloric acid) - which destroys your AC system over the following weeks/months. THAT is what makes DIY converted systems blow up post-conversion. Most A/C shops will only pull vacuum for 10-15 minutes, not nearly long enough to fully clean a system being converted. Pulling vacuum won't boil the moisture - or HCl - out of PAG/POE oil that has been exposed to the air for more than a few minutes. Good ol' mineral oil, which you use with R-12 or replacements, is different. You can pull deep vacuum and de-moisturize a mineral oil system (it doesn't make HCl when it mixes).

My personal recommendation? If you haven't converted, DON'T!! Keep the mineral oil system you have now. Fill it with R-12 if at all possible. It can be bought as cheap as $25/lb in tanks. Buy a tank now (~$700) and you'll be set for the next 20 years! Otherwise, an R-12 replacement like DuraCool or AutoFrost is excellent. The scare tactics about explosions are hogwash - puhleeeeze, can we drop that myth already? (Show me ANY - and I mean even ONE - news report where a vehicle's AC system exploded with propane or anything else in the system, in a crash or otherwise.) Larry's point about reclaiming is valid, BUT is not a reason to avoid blends! Just label the system like Kerry said. C'mon, that's not hard, and the blends work better too. And they're cheap enough to allow a full evac & recharge when required.


For the record, my blue '87 still has R-12 and blows cold. My white '87 was converted to R-134a before I bought it and the compressor is noisy - not a good sign - and it's not nearly as cold. My '84 also was converted, and doesn't blow as cold as it should with R-12. Finally, my sister's '87 was converted and they were VERY unhappy with the performance. They since converted it back to a blend (HotShot) and have been quite pleased with the performance since then.



Best regards,

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I am not saying to anyone here that you are good to go with sealing a leak and loading up with duracool, r12, or 134a either. You HAVE TO do it right. REPLACE the drier, and before doing that flush the system clean of all old oil. When you have it back together pull a good vaccum for an hour or two and then MAKE sure it holds. If not you have a leak. Good professional grade pumps can be rented at least here anyway. Cost is around $40.00 day and well worth it. They even include the gauges if you need them and if you don't have them YOU NEED THEM to do the job right.
I have done three cars now converted to duracool, a 64 Ford T-Bird, 77 240d and a 83 300d. All were done about a year ago and all have worked flawless since then. The 64 required total replacement of everything except the evaporator and condenser including the expansion valve. The 240 only needed a drier and pressure switch, and the 300d was a simple reclaim flush and fill.
Now the legal part of it. Duracool is not legal in many states. Florida being one of them so I don't do this for anyone except family members. It is easy enough to buy on the web so go that way. There are a few blended gasses on the market that may or may not work as well but I have never wused them.

Oh, that reminds me. When doing this you really need to replace ALL the O-ring seals on the entire system, particularly when using a blend. If you don't, certain blends will eat the old type seals and you'll be repeating the whole process a second time.

Also, replacing the aux fan pressure (201/124) or temp (123) switch is a really good idea, it's cheap insurance while the system is evacuated! I would not recommend attempting any of this without manifold gauges, a "real" vac pump, and hopefully some good instructions on how to proceed. If you are filling from a tank (instead of cans) a scale is also required, the best price I found is here:

http://www.thetoolwarehouse.net/shop/TTW46.html

http://www.thetoolwarehouse.net/shop/TTW48.html

http://www.thetoolwarehouse.net/shop/TTW14.html

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GSXR, In those states which made Duracool Illegal... What reason did they give for that action ?

"Duracool is not legal in many states. Florida being one of them so I don't do this for anyone except family members."--Rebootit

Great. Reminds me of the song " You always hurt the ones you love ".

edit .... sorry about wrong attribution on the quote...

It was me that said I only add it to cars that family drives. Not because I fear that it's not safe, because I fear the state regulator that could come down on me for doing it for profit. I have "supervised" a few installs of duracool by others and accepted "gifts" (few beers, steaks, BBQ ribs, fish, etc) for those I have helped
When you look at the big picture and figure that the average car will use around 12 ounces of duracool it becomes obvious that it is not a danger. Why some states ban it and others don't? Besides politics can you give me an answer?

Here is another good general background thread concerning Air conditioning...

Hey guys, quit buying R12!!! GO GET HOT SHOT! IT IS AN HFC BLEND THAT HAS A TEMPERATURE GLIDE ON EITHER SIDE OF R12's P-T! It is a direct drop-in replacement (I know by definition there is no "DROP-IN" replacement for any refrigerant) for orfice tube or expansion valve R-12 AC systems. Go to ICOR.com You will be impressed! And for being less than half the price... can't beat it. Only problem is it can and mostlikely will fractionate if it leaks out of the system. This causes funky ass problems, usually freezing up.

SO STOP CONVERTING TO 134A!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 134A IN AN R12 SYSTEM SUCKS DONKEY BALLS!!!

R-12 is being illegally produced in non regulated countries. There is a huge black market for virgin R12, but find it at your own risk.

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Sorry, that was actually "rebootit" who wrote that. I did not know it was illegal in some states. I'm more of a fan of AutoFrost (R-406a), personally, as the guy who invented it put more research into the blend than most others (IMO). The website has a ton of information:

http://www.autofrost.com/

Click the link about using chlorinated refrigerants in PAG oils. Note that they have a different product (Cooltop) designed to replace R-134a refrigerants, and requires PAG/POE oils instead of mineral. That's more for cars that came from the factory with R-134a systems, not our old R-12 setups.

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All you guys quoting BIG BUCKs to stay with R12...

http://search-completed.ebay.com/search/search.dll?GetResult&query=r12+freon&from=R8&ht=1&combine=y&st=2&SortProperty=MetaEndSort

I had already said way back in this thread that I got it for $18 per 14oz can including shipping last summer....

I'm with you on this one, leatherman! Get the license, the kit, and a few cans and you're all set. Nice thing about staying with R-12 over a blend is you can top off each year, which you can NOT do with a blend. The only advantage to blends is slightly better performance (over R-12) and lower cost (but not by much!) I am sorely tempted to convert my R-134a conversion over to DuraCool, after reading rebootit's vent temp drops (wow).

Regards,

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