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  #1  
Old 06-13-2010, 10:59 PM
mr_manny's Avatar
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om617...would you add an intercooler?

I have begun a project, and may provide an opportunity to add an intercooler.
I have read several posts, and the A/W intercoolers seems to be preferred.

My primarily concern, which may not be a valid...is high EGTs.
I believe most intercoolers are capable of addressing this.

If you had an opportunity to add one, which design would you choose?

Would you choose to run a A/W cooler for shorter runs, more mounting options and low speed efficiency?

Would you choose a standard front mounting type that relies on flowing air?
This design does not require additional components like an electric water pump to circulate water...

Would you lean towards a stock horizontal saab type, that utilizes an electric fan to make up for the restricted location.

or

Would you not run one at all, as these motors will always operate below any EGTs of concern?


thanks,
manny

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  #2  
Old 06-14-2010, 12:35 AM
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  #3  
Old 06-14-2010, 07:33 AM
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IMO Yes...

Well, IF you plan on any tuning work, I would defo think of adding one...

Reduce the thermal-loadings and you'll be able to push it that little bit more reasonably safely....
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  #4  
Old 06-14-2010, 12:53 PM
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If your are seriously going to Hot Rod your car find the thread/posts concerning installing a Pyrometer in your Exhaut Manifold so you can see what the temp actually is.

I have never read yet; and would be interested to know how much more the Intake Maniflod temp is when the Turbo is at full Boost.
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  #5  
Old 06-14-2010, 05:41 PM
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There's really no clear cut answer, however you do want to keep the exhaust temp under 1200F. If it exceeds that for any length of time, you can wind up with some pretty serious engine damage.
I am going to AWAC on mine (Air-Water After Cooler), but mostly because I am going to be beating on it. I am using this unit here: http://www.frozenboost.com/product_info.php?cPath=218&products_id=203&osCsid=f7bfcdfe05f232f09a409c7e0fea9f26 along with a stacked-plate style heat exchanger, and the aux water pump from the 300SD I got the engine from. The heat exchanger mounts in front of the radiator, and I am mounting the aftercooler where the battery used to be in my Courier, plus i am using a snorkel intake and a giant Donaldson filter so I will be getting pretty cool air to start with.
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  #6  
Old 06-14-2010, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4_Welder View Post
There's really no clear cut answer, however you do want to keep the exhaust temp under 1200F. If it exceeds that for any length of time, you can wind up with some pretty serious engine damage.
I am going to AWAC on mine (Air-Water After Cooler), but mostly because I am going to be beating on it. I am using this unit here: http://www.frozenboost.com/product_info.php?cPath=218&products_id=203&osCsid=f7bfcdfe05f232f09a409c7e0fea9f26 along with a stacked-plate style heat exchanger, and the aux water pump from the 300SD I got the engine from. The heat exchanger mounts in front of the radiator, and I am mounting the aftercooler where the battery used to be in my Courier, plus i am using a snorkel intake and a giant Donaldson filter so I will be getting pretty cool air to start with.
What is the normal temp of the Air in the Intake Manifold?

You would think that a Coolant Cooled After Cooler could only cool things down to the temp the Engine is running at and that and Air to Air one has the potential of cooling down to the Ambient Outdoor temp Air Temp that is considerably lower than the Engine Coolant Temp.
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  #7  
Old 06-14-2010, 09:57 PM
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I don't know the normal temp off hand, but you can bet it's well above ambient.
A proper air-water will use a separate system, not the vehicle's cooling system. You set up an oversized transmission cooler in front of your radiator, and have an electric pump (can even be on-demand with a boost switch), and away you go. You can also add an ice box and get temps below ambient. check out that frozenboost.com site, there are a lot of neat products.
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  #8  
Old 06-14-2010, 11:00 PM
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IIRC people fitting intercoolers to VW 1.6 TDs saw intake temps drop about 150*f under load. I'd be interested to see what the stock intake temps are on a mercedes as well. Using the location the overboost sensor normally screws into could be an excellent probe-point.

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  #9  
Old 06-14-2010, 11:08 PM
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Adding an intercooler / aftercooler on a stock engine will only restrict airflow.

If you're planning to increase boost and/or fueling and create higher cylinder temps, then an aftercooler is a good idea at some point.
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  #10  
Old 06-15-2010, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babymog View Post
Adding an intercooler / aftercooler on a stock engine will only restrict airflow.

If you're planning to increase boost and/or fueling and create higher cylinder temps, then an aftercooler is a good idea at some point.
I guess the aftercoolers put on every turbocharged vehicle available today are just extra parts then-
Just because the manufacturer felt they could get the car out of warranty without one does not mean it's not needed. I remember my Trooper TD needed one badly, even with new radiator, water pump, and thermostat the coolant temp would jump on hills. Much of this was due to the lack of charge air cooling, I verified this by running for a time without the turbo. The temps hardly got into the operating range, even though there was quite a bit of smoke showing sufficient fuel.
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  #11  
Old 06-15-2010, 02:21 AM
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With regard to questions around boosting performance:
I am interested in possibly removing the IP limiter...currently don't understand this mod.
Other then that, try to bump boost to 12 or so (if possible w/stock turbo).

It's starting to look like a good starting point would be a boost gauge and Pyrometer.
After some seat time, If EGTs get up there I'll know an intercooler would be a great mod for piece of mind...

thanks for the replies,
manny
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  #12  
Old 06-15-2010, 02:26 AM
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currently the only potentially performance oriented mod is the 85 only cat bypass:

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  #13  
Old 06-15-2010, 10:19 AM
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If running over 7lbs. of boost an aftercooler (or intercooler)

is an up grade if you treat your turbo and it's components as a system
first thing is install a boost gauge to see what you are running for boost

your driving is different then my driving (I live in a small town in IL. no hills no elevation change)
so figure that out

rule of thumb for every degree of intake temp drop you can expect one degree of EGT drop

so we will assume a compressor discharge (air heats up when compressed) temp of 275

if you get an aftercooler efficiency of 70% and an abient temp of 75
in this example manifold temp drops to 135 degrees a 140 improvement

this would drop the EGTs about the same 140 degrees and eliminate any detonation issuse
or the possibility of any detonation ( I know we diesel lovers need heat to run but I got 22:1 compression and 405psi-410psi across all 6 cylinders in my 603.961 300 SDL)

example
pulling a cooler denser air charge can result in more power at less boost pressure BUT...
if your EGTs drop dramatically that differance lowers the available energy to drive the

turbos turbine (exhaust side) which slows down the turbine and lowers boost
but you could put a smaller turbine wheel on to compesate but who wants to do that?

So when sourcing a cooler many things to consider
can the people you get it from help you with your turbo SYSTEM

cubic in. (3 liter 183cu.)
boost you already run in your typical driving

RPM range you want to run "best in" (we diesel would be "low" 1500-maybe 3800)
my 603 can run up to 4500 then shift and bark the tires from 2nd to 3rd still got to adjust trans modulator it runs like a turbo 400 with a B&M shift kit and it shouldn't

sq. in of aftercooler equally (or close) matched to
RMP
horsepower range
turbo you have
displacement
fuel delivery amount (lite that candle)
muffler (get rid of stock) ( my muffler wears about the same pant size as I do 30in. maybe same inseam too 32in. ha!)
and don't forget about the air filter

example
sq. in. of filter required =
(lbs. of boost/14.7) + 1 x CID x max RPM/20,839
courtesy of K+N

So 10lbs. of boost 3L (183 cu.in.) 6,000 RPM max power (ours is lower but plug in your #)
requires 88.5 sq. in. of filter area

(10/14.7) + 1 x 183 x 6,000/20839= 88.53 sq. in.

I will put in a air to air after cooler maybe next year
an hour after shut down my intake cross over tube was still at about 130 degrees

I know that is the temp of the heat soaked AL. but can you imagine what the temp

of the air into the intake must be while driving!!
Cooler is better
cooler cars are better
cooler beer is better
cooler chicks are better
cooler denser air is better ( but there is a limit as outlined above turbine speeds ECT.)
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  #14  
Old 06-15-2010, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah brinkman View Post
If running over 7lbs. of boost an aftercooler (or intercooler)

is an up grade if you treat your turbo and it's components as a system
first thing is install a boost gauge to see what you are running for boost

your driving is different then my driving (I live in a small town in IL. no hills no elevation change)
so figure that out

rule of thumb for every degree of intake temp drop you can expect one degree of EGT drop

so we will assume a compressor discharge (air heats up when compressed) temp of 275

if you get an aftercooler efficiency of 70% and an abient temp of 75
in this example manifold temp drops to 135 degrees a 140 improvement

this would drop the EGTs about the same 140 degrees and eliminate any detonation issuse
or the possibility of any detonation ( I know we diesel lovers need heat to run but I got 22:1 compression and 405psi-410psi across all 6 cylinders in my 603.961 300 SDL)

example
pulling a cooler denser air charge can result in more power at less boost pressure BUT...
if your EGTs drop dramatically that differance lowers the available energy to drive the

turbos turbine (exhaust side) which slows down the turbine and lowers boost
but you could put a smaller turbine wheel on to compesate but who wants to do that?

So when sourcing a cooler many things to consider
can the people you get it from help you with your turbo SYSTEM

cubic in. (3 liter 183cu.)
boost you already run in your typical driving

RPM range you want to run "best in" (we diesel would be "low" 1500-maybe 3800)
my 603 can run up to 4500 then shift and bark the tires from 2nd to 3rd still got to adjust trans modulator it runs like a turbo 400 with a B&M shift kit and it shouldn't

sq. in of aftercooler equally (or close) matched to
RMP
horsepower range
turbo you have
displacement
fuel delivery amount (lite that candle)
muffler (get rid of stock) ( my muffler wears about the same pant size as I do 30in. maybe same inseam too 32in. ha!)
and don't forget about the air filter

example
sq. in. of filter required =
(lbs. of boost/14.7) + 1 x CID x max RPM/20,839
courtesy of K+N

So 10lbs. of boost 3L (183 cu.in.) 6,000 RPM max power (ours is lower but plug in your #)
requires 88.5 sq. in. of filter area

(10/14.7) + 1 x 183 x 6,000/20839= 88.53 sq. in.

I will put in a air to air after cooler maybe next year
an hour after shut down my intake cross over tube was still at about 130 degrees

I know that is the temp of the heat soaked AL. but can you imagine what the temp

of the air into the intake must be while driving!!
Cooler is better
cooler cars are better
cooler beer is better
cooler chicks are better
cooler denser air is better ( but there is a limit as outlined above turbine speeds ECT.)
I agree with everything but that chicks part... HOT chicks are the best.
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  #15  
Old 06-15-2010, 12:32 PM
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good info...and x2 chicks

guess I should add the following regarding planned mods:
unrestrictive air filter.
3" down pipe...currently thinking no muffler, remember this is a truck

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