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  #1  
Old 01-22-2017, 07:58 AM
WTB: 94/95 E320 Wagon
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 2,673
3.5 liter injection pump in a 3.0 liter engine

Dieselvolk,

I've got an injection pump from a '94 with 3.5 liter engine that I've installed in my '87 wagon with 3.0 liter engine.

Here's the situation: My 124.193, with 365k miles, isn't running well at all. Under anything more than gentle throttle, the engine pings and smokes. Mileage is bad, around 22 mpg in town, about 25 on the highway. I used to get about 26 in town, 28 on the highway. Starts fine, idles fine. A diesel-purge treatment will clear it right up, and it will run just fine (and get better mileage) for about a month, and then it declines back to poor running. Italian tune-ups will also help a bit (especially with the smoking).

What changed? I installed an injection pump from a 3.5 liter engine. One of the three hold-down tangs on the original IP broke (long story) so I had to replace it, and I had this 3.5 liter IP on the shelf.

When I installed this "new" IP, I overhauled the delivery valves, and adjusted the ALDA 1/2 turn richer. I have since moved the ALDA screw back to the original position, I think, I need to check the records. I may have only moved it back 1/4 turn.


What else is wrong? I have the wrong glow plugs installed. When I installed the "new" head a few years ago (with oblique injection) I swapped in the relatively new glow plugs from the original head. Oblique injection heads use a glow plug that is shorter.

Two weekends ago I adjusted the timing (it was a couple degrees advanced), and then went on a 900 mile highway trip for work. No change in performance. I think that this bigger pump is over-fueling the engine, resulting in lots of un-burned fuel and carbon build up.

Yesterday afternoon I installed a boost gauge and measured only 8 psi boost. I shortened the waste-gate rod 1.5 turns (which took about two hours, what a pain!) which only bumped up the boost to about 9.5 psi. That did seem to help, but after thinking about it overnight perhaps all the "Italian" tune-ups that I did to test the performance are what improved the rough running.


Options that I can think of:


1) Back off the ALDA screw a little more.

2) Install the correct glow plugs.

3) Fix the turbo output with external controller, bump it back up to 14 psi.

4) Remove the 3.5 liter injection pump, put a 3.0 liter IP back in (now I have a complete engine/tranny with pump that I can raid).

5) Pull the engine and tranny, swap in "new" engine / tranny that are much younger, only 143k miles. The downside is that engine still has the original #14 head, but that is minor (I think the head is sound).
__________________
Respectfully,
/s/
M. Dillon
'87 124.193 (300TD) "White Whale", ~392k miles, 3.5l IP fitted
'95 124.131 (E300) "Sapphire", 380k miles
'73 Balboa 20 "Sanctification"
Charleston SC
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  #2  
Old 01-22-2017, 11:27 AM
Diseasel300's Avatar
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I wound up with a 3.5L IP in my '86 SDL with the 3.0 and I have pretty well exactly the reverse situation as you.

Mine starts up fine and runs fine when driving, but once the engine is hot and idling, I develop a soft miss and a loudly nailing injector. Currently have parts on order to do the DV's in mine as I've ruled literally everything else out besides internal IP issues (PLEASE NOT AGAIN!).

For what it's worth, I'm getting mid 20s in-town driving. Last tank was ~25mpg for 100% stop/go traffic which is better than my Honda gets! I don't do highway driving in it yet as there's a driveline vibration that kicks in around 60mph and I haven't ironed it out yet.

Mine only seems to burp smoke if you stick your foot in it. Once the turbo spools up, the smoke is significantly minimized. I haven't done any sort of tuning to mine yet or adjusted the ALDA (still has factory seal).

For what it's worth, mine shows 173K on the clock (I have a feeling the real value is close to twice that), original #14 head with vertical injection, so I have a slightly different injection setup than you do (vertical vs oblique).

Out of curiosity, have you performed a compression test? I only ask because of the mileage and the sooting. Is the EGR functional or is it blocked off? When you replaced the head did you clean out the intake manifold runners or are they all mucked up? Mine were horrible (breathing through a hole the size of my pinky finger) and got cleaned out entirely and the EGR blocked off.

Just bouncing ideas and thoughts out there...
__________________
'11 Honda Accord EX - "The Daily" 64K
'83 500SL Euro - "The Money Pit" 116K
'91 350SD - "The Diseasel Jr." 168K
'86 300SDL - "The Diseasel" 189K (Totaled 1/31/19)
The Diseasel Thread - Everything You Didn't Know You Wanted To Know
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  #3  
Old 01-22-2017, 05:48 PM
WTB: 94/95 E320 Wagon
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 2,673
I've never done a compression test. EGR has been blocked off for nearly 100k miles now. Intake manifold is relatively clean, I think it was cleaned out when I blocked off the EGR.

Curious that in a heavier car you're getting better mileage. I think you are on the right path with the delivery valves.
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Respectfully,
/s/
M. Dillon
'87 124.193 (300TD) "White Whale", ~392k miles, 3.5l IP fitted
'95 124.131 (E300) "Sapphire", 380k miles
'73 Balboa 20 "Sanctification"
Charleston SC
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  #4  
Old 01-22-2017, 06:20 PM
Diseasel300's Avatar
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I sure hope I'm on the right path with the DV's. The obnoxious shake at idle is really getting under my skin since everything else seems to run like a clock. It also REALLY annoys me that I elected to leave the DV's alone on this IP to rule out a variable, and it looks like they're a source of problems.

Driving style could have a lot to do with the fuel economy. I tend to be a fairly sedate driver. I do the speed limit, but I'm not a throttle poker, I tend to know where the shift points are and how much throttle will require a downshift, so I give just enough fuel to ride the torque without making the engine really work that hard. Years of commuting to and from the city teach you how to hypermile without actually trying to...

Another thing to keep in mind is the final drive ratio of the diff. The SDL may have a higher final drive ratio than the TD does. I could be talking out my backside there (don't quote me).

Additionally, if you aren't getting enough air in the cylinders (low boost) you will tend to collect a bit of carbon and waste fuel (rich mixture). With the 3.5 IP installed, make sure the boost is where it is supposed to be and that you don't have any air leaks in the induction system.
__________________
'11 Honda Accord EX - "The Daily" 64K
'83 500SL Euro - "The Money Pit" 116K
'91 350SD - "The Diseasel Jr." 168K
'86 300SDL - "The Diseasel" 189K (Totaled 1/31/19)
The Diseasel Thread - Everything You Didn't Know You Wanted To Know
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  #5  
Old 01-27-2017, 02:58 PM
WTB: 94/95 E320 Wagon
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 2,673
Update: The boost is now 13 psi, after driving the car hard for a couple days. Smoke is gone, but the nailing / pinging is still there. Power? Wow, like a new car! I must have been driving around with weak boost forever. I haven't had time to test the 0-60 run time, but I'll bet that it is much better now, was about 12.5 - 13 seconds before.

Now I'm also getting a miss at cold idle.

I really think I've got either a bad injector or a bad DV seal.
__________________
Respectfully,
/s/
M. Dillon
'87 124.193 (300TD) "White Whale", ~392k miles, 3.5l IP fitted
'95 124.131 (E300) "Sapphire", 380k miles
'73 Balboa 20 "Sanctification"
Charleston SC
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  #6  
Old 01-27-2017, 06:03 PM
Diseasel300's Avatar
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I'm currently waiting on parts to do the DV's in my pump. Made the mistake of ordering a couple extra parts and it's holding up the order (sigh).

Of particular interest: I filled up with fuel today. Normally I fill up at an Exxon/Esso near my house, but today I was on the other side of town and filled up at a Shell. Within about 30 seconds of driving on the new tank of fuel, the obnoxious clattering idle and very loud nailing were gone. The nailing is still present at idle, but it no longer sounds like someone hammering on an anvil. It's important to note that I use no other additives to my tank other than ~4 oz of 2-stroke oil, currently a 20 year old bottle from a boat we had when I was a kid (so nothing special).

My point - fuel quality could be a factor here. I'm no expert in diesels, but the difference in noise was profound on my car, simply by fueling at a different place.

As for fuel economy: I did 384 miles on 16.24 gallons of diesel. If my math is right, this is 23.65mpg doing 100% in-town driving - the car never even got over 50mph on this tank of fuel. This was the first tank I've monitored with a working odometer and honestly I'm surprised it was that high with all the stop/go slow driving it's been doing.

If you haven't read it already, there's another thread currently running regarding DV's causing nailing/missing: Delivery valve internal leak as a cause of nailing? Yes? No? Maybe???
__________________
'11 Honda Accord EX - "The Daily" 64K
'83 500SL Euro - "The Money Pit" 116K
'91 350SD - "The Diseasel Jr." 168K
'86 300SDL - "The Diseasel" 189K (Totaled 1/31/19)
The Diseasel Thread - Everything You Didn't Know You Wanted To Know
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  #7  
Old 04-21-2017, 04:23 PM
WTB: 94/95 E320 Wagon
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 2,673
OK, a little update on this thread.

New (correct) glow plugs installed.

Boost was increased from 8 psi to 13 psi.

New Monark injectors installed (Greazzer rebuilt a set for me - awesome work there).

Smoking is largely fixed, but I still have visible smoke under full throttle, so I've got to lean out the ALDA a bit more.

There still is nailing from at least one cylinder, so I'm going to drive it a bit and maybe run some injector cleaner through a fuel tank to two. Cold starts are better but not what they used to be - there is a consistent miss from one cylinder when cold.

If I have no improvement after a few weeks, I'll probably see if I can narrow the miss down to one cylinder, and then try replacing that delivery valve with a good used valve from the original IP.
__________________
Respectfully,
/s/
M. Dillon
'87 124.193 (300TD) "White Whale", ~392k miles, 3.5l IP fitted
'95 124.131 (E300) "Sapphire", 380k miles
'73 Balboa 20 "Sanctification"
Charleston SC
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  #8  
Old 04-21-2017, 07:39 PM
Diseasel300's Avatar
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Mine smokes a bit when you really romp on the throttle. Not really concerned about it.

Not sure if you've kept up with the "DV as a source of nailing" thread, but the nailing (LOUD) in mine was solved by isolating the problem cylinder (Cylinder 4 in my case) and swapping in a new DV. It'll clatter a bit when cold (multiple cylinders), but after about 90-120 seconds of runtime, it quietens right down.
__________________
'11 Honda Accord EX - "The Daily" 64K
'83 500SL Euro - "The Money Pit" 116K
'91 350SD - "The Diseasel Jr." 168K
'86 300SDL - "The Diseasel" 189K (Totaled 1/31/19)
The Diseasel Thread - Everything You Didn't Know You Wanted To Know
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  #9  
Old 04-26-2017, 01:45 PM
WTB: 94/95 E320 Wagon
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 2,673
Yes, I followed your repair. Last night when I got home I had the AC on, the engine was at full operating temperature, and I noticed that with that load at idle it was nailing just a bit and noticeably rough. I cracked injection lines, found that cracking #3 would stop the nailing, so that DV and injector will be the focus of future troubleshooting. I'm not sure if I should replace the DV with a good used unit first, or try moving the injector to see if the nailing follows.
__________________
Respectfully,
/s/
M. Dillon
'87 124.193 (300TD) "White Whale", ~392k miles, 3.5l IP fitted
'95 124.131 (E300) "Sapphire", 380k miles
'73 Balboa 20 "Sanctification"
Charleston SC
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  #10  
Old 04-26-2017, 01:59 PM
Diseasel300's Avatar
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I would try the injector swap first, just to rule that out. If the nailing doesn't follow, move onto the DV itself.
__________________
'11 Honda Accord EX - "The Daily" 64K
'83 500SL Euro - "The Money Pit" 116K
'91 350SD - "The Diseasel Jr." 168K
'86 300SDL - "The Diseasel" 189K (Totaled 1/31/19)
The Diseasel Thread - Everything You Didn't Know You Wanted To Know
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  #11  
Old 04-27-2017, 12:53 PM
Diseasel300's Avatar
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2 for 2 DV swaps eliminating nailing injectors now. I finally broke down and installed the Monark nozzles in my injectors. Had them for over a year now and never installed. I've been running Bosch India nozzles and the smoke under load was getting a little absurd. Pulled the injectors, swapped over to the Monark nozzles and carefully balanced them. 1950PSI +/- 25PSI is where I wound up. Great chatter, beautiful spray pattern, no leakdown.

Threw them in the car and went for a drive. Knock-Knock, Who's there? The Diseasel... Welcome back, Injector knock! Checked Cylinder 4, which has been my problem child and made no difference in the noise, if anything it got LOUDER. Went through the rest of the injectors and found #6 was my nailer. LOUD, LOUD nailing. Pulled the injector, pop test was still perfect. 1950 on the nose, beautiful spray, no "peeing", and no leakdown.

Immediately swapped out the DV. Like the one from #4, there was a light ring of wear on the sealing face, no pitting on this one though. Torqued everything down and went for a drive. BAD results. Nailing was even WORSE (to the point of people turning and looking) and now I had a dead cylinder. Checked and it wasn't #6 that was dead or nailing, it was #5. Apparently when I loosened the hard line at the IP, I forgot that the entire DV holder will twist if the lock ring isn't fastened down.

Torqued #5 back down and hooked everything back up. Now remarkably quiet. No more nailing, and surprisingly, the remainder of the idle shake I had is now gone too. For the first time since I've owned the car, the idle is about on par with a 6 cylinder gas engine. Not silky smooth, but to the point that you no longer notice the engine idling. With the windows up you really struggle to tell it's even running.

For those keeping track, I've had NO luck with injectors solving the nailing, but had 2 out of 2 attempts at DV replacement solving my issues.

I'm starting to wonder if the DVs simply wear out and need replacing after x00K miles? The general consensus always seems to state that the IP never wears out, but I simply haven't had that result. I realize that my engine is a tiny fraction of a percentage of all of the OM603 engines out there, but it certainly hasn't been a 'wear-free' experience.

Sort of off topic - for anyone else reading, if you're considering injector nozzles, the Monark nozzles are a massive step up from the Bosch India nozzles. Easier starting, much quieter idle, and significantly improved acceleration. The black smoke on hard acceleration is also SIGNIFICANTLY less. With the 3.5L IP and the Bosch India nozzles, it got to the point where I could smoke out an intersection if I put my foot down hard. My Bosch India nozzles were all popping ~1900 PSI except for one which was 2200PSI for some reason (they were balanced at 1900-1950). 3 of the 6 had poor spray patterns (very narrow spray) and 1 was leaking down internally. Not good for 1 year and ~2500 miles of use on Pump #2.
__________________
'11 Honda Accord EX - "The Daily" 64K
'83 500SL Euro - "The Money Pit" 116K
'91 350SD - "The Diseasel Jr." 168K
'86 300SDL - "The Diseasel" 189K (Totaled 1/31/19)
The Diseasel Thread - Everything You Didn't Know You Wanted To Know
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  #12  
Old 05-11-2017, 01:33 PM
WTB: 94/95 E320 Wagon
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 2,673
We're up to 3 for 3 DV's causing nailing. Last night I swapped out #3 delivery valve in my 3.5L pump with on from my dead 3.0L pump, and the nailing is GONE! The poor running at idle is fixed, and the smoke under load is also far far better. I think I need to lean out the ALDA just a little more.
__________________
Respectfully,
/s/
M. Dillon
'87 124.193 (300TD) "White Whale", ~392k miles, 3.5l IP fitted
'95 124.131 (E300) "Sapphire", 380k miles
'73 Balboa 20 "Sanctification"
Charleston SC
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  #13  
Old 05-11-2017, 07:44 PM
Diseasel300's Avatar
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Excellent news! Eventually when I'm feeling "lucky" (whatever that is) I plan to start a thread on tuning the IP in my car a bit. I need to raise the RPM limit to better let the transmission do its thing and definitely need to tune the fuel limit. With the new Monark nozzles I installed, the car runs better than it ever has before, but if you hot-foot it from a stop, that thing will roll coal with the most clapped out of Cummins Dodges. Sure doesn't wait around though...
__________________
'11 Honda Accord EX - "The Daily" 64K
'83 500SL Euro - "The Money Pit" 116K
'91 350SD - "The Diseasel Jr." 168K
'86 300SDL - "The Diseasel" 189K (Totaled 1/31/19)
The Diseasel Thread - Everything You Didn't Know You Wanted To Know
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  #14  
Old 05-29-2017, 09:23 AM
Doug F.
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: South Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxbumpo View Post
OK, a little update on this thread.

Boost was increased from 8 psi to 13 psi.
How did you accomplish that? I am having severe turbo problems now and am looking for all ideas. Thank you!
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  #15  
Old 05-29-2017, 10:11 AM
WTB: 94/95 E320 Wagon
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Charleston SC
Posts: 2,673
Doug,

There is a threaded rod between the wasted gate and the actuator valve. I had to remove the cross-over pipe and then the intake part attached to the head immediately below the cross-over pipe, so that I had access to the rod. This is a difficult thing to do, there are three hex-head bolts that hold this part to the head, and there is one on the bottom that is really hard to get to.

On the back of the actuator valve is a lock nut. On the waste gate end of the rod is a washer and a clip. You need to remove that washer / clip and get the end of the rod out of the waste gate arm, loosen the lock nut, and then adjust the rod.

From foggy memory, every turn of the rod tighter should increase boost by 3 (or 3.5?) PSI. I found this on a website somewhere that talked about Garrett turbos. I bought a boost gauge and hooked that up to confirm the boost was low, made the adjustment and confirmed that boost was normal and not too high.

Potentially an easier way would be to purchase an external adjustable valve that you put inline before the waste gate actuator valve, so that you can modulate the pressure getting to the valve, and then you don't have to mess with the rod. After I adjusted the rod, there was no immediate change in boost (one test drive), so I ordered one of these external waste gate valves. During the next day of driving to and from work, the boost came up to normal, so I ended up sending that valve back for a refund.
__________________
Respectfully,
/s/
M. Dillon
'87 124.193 (300TD) "White Whale", ~392k miles, 3.5l IP fitted
'95 124.131 (E300) "Sapphire", 380k miles
'73 Balboa 20 "Sanctification"
Charleston SC
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