Appreciate your response and no offense taken.
I've seen the results of "insane" power in Roman's latest engine and transmission self destructing.
Not meant to offend more to give a reality check.

How fast do you want to go with "insane" power and how much will it cost???

Seems like Roman has an unrecoverable investment in his last attempt to go 200MPH !!!

I've just asked reasonable questions of him such as posting his dyno charts, so I can better understand not only how, but why build an M103 to turn 10000RPM, but peak power is made under 7000RPM.

I believe I posted that I am using a very expensive ?( $350.00 !!! ) stand alone additional injector controller to fire the two injectors above the throttle body.
It has a built in MAP sensor so it reads engine speed and manifold absolute pressure which is controlled by a software setting.
Under boost I run 12.5 AFR / .85 Lambda.

I dyno'd and tuned on a Mustang load dyno.
Produced 196HP and 220LBFT torque.
Far from "insane", perhaps laughable to most much younger then I.

But yet with meager numbers, I'm able to run 0-60 in 5.49 seconds in 90 degree F / high humidity ambient.
You seem to have knowledge of "insane" turbo installs, so I guess you will realize that dropping ambient temp 40 degrees with low humidity should improve acceleration by 3 to 4 tenths.

Not bad for an antiquated semi electronic fuel injection system.

Know very well the "theory of evolution" as applied to the modern internal combustion engine.

How much in time and material did Roman spend on his recently "deceased" motor ???
Is that considered cost effective...help me with his HP/$$$ ratio so I can better understand how cost effective your engine building is !

Correct me if I'm speaking out of turn, but didn't Roman destroy a transmission per his posting???

No offense but if you are making 500RWP, then your at around a 6-7LB/HP power to weight ratio.
On slicks I would think you should be under 11 seconds and trapping 130MPH +.
Unless of course the power to weight calculations no longer hold true !!!

I hope you are not offended, but I'm an old guy whose gone very fast in his life, and am trying to understand where I'm going wrong.
My results aren't telling me, but I'm open to knowledge !!!

To be honest no $$$ at all, I am sponsered by mercedes jankyard so I have about 3 more M103 to blown away. I just wanna se how much they can handle. I stil dont know yet becaurse my last engine broke becaurse of I forgot to put a clamp to water hose on radiator and the hose came loose when I was racing with motorcykle and not because of high boost and high RPM.
Next target is 2,5bar!

By the way even if i did not have a jankyard sponsor I could by the M103 just for some 400-700$ on junkyard. Not big money at all to run 700hp with. And the only think I need to repare on my broken engine is bearings, its about 200$. So the damage was not so expensive.

You should know hat the engine was not new and been using for 400000km and stil handle so much power

About high RPM so I will order a turbo camshaft and maybe put a little beat bigger turbinhouse becaurse M103 high RPM are amazing, its sounds and feels amazing!

To drive w124 or w201 with 600+++Hp is something you must feel "live" to understand WHY some poeple never get happy with 0,5bar

And about tranny we allready have a few good solutions, next season will tell

__________________
MB 300E 24v Turbo MS3X


TURBOCHARGE YOUR MERCEDES

www.turbobandit.com
My band!
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Turbobandit/135610656626424?fref=ts

Don't take me wrong, the lean condition I am describing would be pretty far from smoking a cylinder but none the less, the unbalance is still there. I wouldn't be so concerned with vapor dropping out as much as not making it to the intake runner. You say yourself that you switched the the Split Second supplemental because you thought the kit's stock enrichment needed improvement. I believe we are all just saying there is room for more improvement by switching to EFI. Now, weather or not springing $1200 or more for the better torque and throttle response with the same amount of boost is worth it to you, that's another matter. You may be perfectly happy with what you have already and by the way, you did a very nice job! If you do eventually go for EFI I think you will enjoy tuning it. Just remember you haven't even messed around with ignition timing yet. You'll be amazed by what a few degrees here and there does for you!
Enjoy!
Adam

__________________
Current Stable:
01 ML55 AMG
92 500E (a few mods)
87 300E (lots of mods)
00 Chevy 3500HD Diesel Box Truck
68 18' Donzi Marine
06 GT i-Drive7 1.0 Mountain Bike (with GPS!)

PREVIOUSLY OWNED:83 300SD, 87 420SEL, 88 420SEL, 90 420SEL, 86 560SEL, 86 190E 2.3-16V AMG, 94 E320

Adam

How does the EFI adjust individual cylinder fuel feed from the O2 sensor loop?.
Doesn't it use one wide band O2 sensor, that is no different then what I use, that reads the combination of more then one cylinder ?
Do you have the ability to read individual cylinder Lambda ?

I'm running twin turbos, in essence two three cylinder engines running on the same crank shaft.
True 2.25" dual exhaust thru two in line Magnaflow spun metal cats.
Pipes do not commingle exhaust gases until they reach the rear silencer.
Each pipe has a wide band O2 sensor for tuning purposes.
Vehicle was run on the dyno while reading the Lambda AFR from the O2 sensors.
Fuel mapping and timing was adjusted and locked in when we got max power.
The R2 software has initial settings.
Logically the setting would be 6 cylinder 4 stroke, but a "tuner" trick is to set at 3 cylinder 2 stroke.
This doubles the pulse firing of the injectors under boost conditions.
Keep in mind that the fuel delivery system in essence is between two "pumps".
You're seeing a positive boost discharge from the intercooler and a negative suction from the engine.
No different in theory but much more efficient in how a carburetor delivers an even air fuel mixture equally thru intake runners to each cylinder. !

Ed A.

How many hours did it take you to do your fabrication and build your engine?

This is what I really fail to comprehend.
You're claiming to achieve 9000+ RPM with a M103-12V.
So at what RPM are you producing peak power and torque?

You previously posted running at 9000RPM and attempting a 0-200MPH run.
9000 RPM with 3.07 gearing would theoretically calculate to about 210 MPH.
Amazing that you claim to reach speeds with a .37cd that exotic super cars fail to reach.
AMG was never able to get more then 180 +/- with a W124.

No offense intended but would really like to see your dyno charts, especially the one where you indicated over 10K rpm.

I'm interested in the shape of the power curve !

Thanks



Last time I drove a 600HP vehicle was 1972, so I more then know how it feels to run fast in a straight line.

Correct.
If you missed that piece of info heīs on the other hand passed 600hp.

Agreed 100%.

My new one is the exception to the rule,cause altho intended for the street...itīs anything but a street engine anymore.
Multiple disc sinters,full bore 3.5" exhaust aso..the full 9 yards IOW.

FWIW.
Iīd say that the "cost effectiveness" is a matter of opinion,cause if you value time-your own-at all...
Look at it this way.
I personaly use the swedish VEMS SA.
It runs approx 1000 bux ready built.
Atop of that you need various sensors and injectors leaving you with a total around 2 grand.(Injectors,FPR,Fuelrail,sensors,wires and sheaths for them)
You get the box with EGT input and wideband lambda sensor for those 1000 bux.

Now,with those 2 grand invested you still need to install it yourself,which is straightforward enough.
Then itīs a Q of getting the whole thing adjusted.

Thing is...
If you add up the cost of the piggy coupled with hotter spark,injectors needed ,the WB setup aso...itīll most def get to be a penny or two as well,and the major culprit here is that due to the vastly higher resolution and realtime adjustability the SA will beat the "modded" OEM piece hands down 10 times out of 10 from every perspective there is.
Further,that you CAN wring your laptop out and just go at it with the ease you do makes for it to indeed happen.
Instead of spending hrs and hrs on end...you spend minutes.

List goes on.

But..thatīs just my opinion.
To a degree where i havenīt installed an aftermarket chip or similar in the last 10yrs as i just refuse to when the SAs of today are as afforable as they are.

Agreed that these engines can most def be made to not only keep up with the "M" cars et al,they can be made to leave them behind like a bounced check..

(Funny u mention it,cause it said with bold letters written with an ink marker on my boot lid...
"WHO THE F IS "M"?"

May I quote you ?

I think we tend to agree on the technicals.

I guess my difficulty with any claims made on forums, be they substantiated or not, tend to give those that have no conception of time or cost to build a vehicle, a false sense of what they can achieve !!!

I tend to question based on my knowledge, in hopes to open the eyes of those who will jump in and start taking the head off the engine, then not know what to do with it.

In a way, a bit of a "cynic" or "devil's advocate"

I still would really like to see the dyno chart of any M103/M104 that you know of that is capable of close to 10K RPM.

My goal as the weather cools a bit is to get my brought up to date, "period" TurboTechnics install to run 0-60 in close to 5 seconds flat.
Keep in mind auto trans and 3.07 gearing.
Will complete the tune hopefully under 1/4 testing and believe I will see mid 13's and 100+ mph.
Trying to perform as the new 335 TT Bimmer does at a fraction of the cost !

Subject of manifolds.
Itīs ALL a matter of material.
Trust me.

You will not...i repeat,you WILL not...warp inconel.
For the sake of argument,altho what i use is the 600 stuff...the 718 is used...as heat protection the underside of the spaceshuttle.
Temps will have turned your cast iron piece to a molten piece of metal b4 the inconel turns in the towel.

"Iconel".....I will not dispute the use of this alloy in high temp applications.
Very familiar with its performance in process industry installations..
Kind of costly too !!!

You're light years ahead of material choices from the majority of USA fabricators.
Took a long time to use stainless in instead of carbon steel, both of which lack the thermal cycling properties of inconel...

See you can teach an old dog new tricks !!!

Racing...

New subject.

What do you do to lower the engine bay temps in a turbo install?

Consider almost all of the USA has summer ambient temps that tend to reach 35C along with high humidity.

Do you use heat extractor vents in the hood?
Asking because I'm about to install 280Z extractors which would mimic the hood mods that Willi Mosselman did on the TT Silver Arrow 300CE/300SL in 1991.





Concerned about residual heat breaking down insulation and rubber parts !!

Thanks

Ed A.

Ed.
So far...nothing.
Havenīt done a thing for evacuating underhood air.
On the other hand,the top speeds in this country is all about bursts.
Very very seldome do we maintain high speed for any period of time.(Approx 80mph is the legal limit)

Have given it some though for the next setup tho,cause simply put ...he who labours got to sweat.
Idea is for a NACA duct approx 2/3s down the lenght of the hood.Do not go any closer to the windshield as there will be tubulence,and you might very well make the duct completely inactive.
Mainly to have somewhere for the hot gasses AROUND the turbo to escape.
Porsche used this setup with great success on the 931(924 turbo),and IMO the setups we fool around with are similar from an estethics point of view.

Further,thereīs "help" to be found at the undercarriage if you ask me.
The 16V even sports a NACA in the undertray OEM for the catalyst vehicles,and i logicaly presume this could be improved/built upon.

Massive scoops on cars like this is out IMO...just isnīt done on a merc,but thatīs just me.

Also have in mind that a NACA-when of correct dimensions-is WAY more effective than any louvers in the hood.

Within the engine cmpt tho,i mainly move the oilcooler and lay it flat as well as move it backwards-toward the motor.
Reasons for this is plentifold,but main one being lack of space within the radiator support-i to keep the OEM looks of the car iīm set to keep body mods to a minimum.(Which canīt be said for my current rust bucket)

Overflow tank i something i place next to the battery,and hoses leading to and from...i simply make a new hardline with outlets needed that goes for the heater element.Bracket and tank i use the Volvo "submarine" off the 740 series with a 125kPa lid.

Thing is,that mainly due to underhood temp i simply move the intire manage on the pass side inner fender,so in practice this area becomes clean from accessories-which is a void i use for the turbo hedder and wastegate.
Of course this also leaves us with a rather long arm of momentum for the whole thing to move around,and this in turn puts bigger loads on the engine mounts/cushions.
Therefore i use the "rally" ones for..again Volvos.
Solid mount....nope..not with a 4 banger.
With a V8...iīve run it more times than i care to remember,and will continue doing so,but for an inline 4 banger...forget it.
Simply put the inherent balance of a 4 banger just isnīt there,leaving you with your eyes standing out of your head on sticks if you would even try to.
The 6 is better from this respect,but not as good as the V8 setup.

Another angle of attack when it comes to underhood heat is that of heatshields.
I use them,and form them from common aluminium sheet metal.
Turn weldbungs that i put windings of choice in and weld these to strategic point,then turn some oversize "washers" out of aluminium too,and bolt the whole thing together.
Point being that the high frequenzy vibrations always present with any running motor will rip bolts right through thin sheet metal aluminium if you donīt leave the thing with some similar material "reinforcements" to work with-hence the approx 1/4" thick "washers" at every bolt.
This is for shields bolted TO the motor tho,and they indeed work like a charm.
Another tip if youīre concerned with this is to visit your local weld house.
They will be able to supply you with welding shields out of weaved material thatīs pliable,and efficient enough for you to actualy glue it in place.

Racing

Thanks

Have been discussing the heat problem primarily with owners of 500E's
There was one in Japan who has used wide louvers in the front of the hood, for intake cooling, but location would not allow extraction.

If I use the 280Z extractors they will be located as Mosselman did on the Silver Arrows.

Not worried as much about heat under driving conditions, more at idle and after shut down.

One 500E owner was thinking about exhausting via a fan.
I will be trying this probably next week.
Will be using an inline blower of the type that NASCAR uses to cool brakes.
It's tubular, about 7" long, with a 4" intake and a 3" discharge and moves 270CFM.

I'll initially use an inline thermal disc thermostat to turn on around 150F and off at 135F.
I need first to read spot temps with an infrared thermometer.

Considering locating the blower on the rear bulkhead at the centerline of the engine.
Will use 3" duct to the lower chassis on the intake side of the engine.
This should create a negative pressure to draw the rising heat from the turbo heat shields.

Have you considered this method ?

Thanks

Ed

Ed.
Not to show off,but the truth is that my training is primarily within the aeronautic field.
For something as "slow" as a car,it is wise to focus on exhausting air rather than how it enters.
Entry points can always be made up easily by some intelligent placement of sheet metal.
Gettin rid of the gas is another story,and more often than not takes some serious logic and thinking cap on.

Iīm also to an extent an advocate of the KISS principle.
Ie;In this case as the NACA is around,why bother trying to reinvent the wheel?

As for underhood temps in traffic(IOW low speeds or standstill),i woulndīt bother all that much.
Another area where a SA would be of help as youīre able to make it go closed loop over a WB...leaving you with a deal where the WB will counteract the difference in airmass from the heat from a fuel amount point of view.

Racing

Good points !!!

Simplicity is critical in designing for reliability and performance.

One of the reasons I discarded the supplied 1990"s era British piggy back electronics which were layered with redundant components along with some devices that really didn't do much !!!

That's why I'm considering heat extraction because as you state adding air into the engine bay still has to go some where !!!

First considered the NACA theory, but it doesn't look "period" on the W124.
Looked at the 280ZX turbo scoop which had a combination louver and NACA design

Being in the aeronautical field gives you a different vantage point from those that have automotive only training.

Thanks again.

Ed