Roman has asked me to chime in here for the sake of reason.

No offense in any way,but the mere fact is that you can hamper with the Kjet and its derivates to hell freezes over and it won´t touch a SA anytime of the week.

I´m NOT in any way coming down on your install...i recap that i´m NOT.

I´m just asking you to compare apples to apples,and again...the mere fact is that the old KE won´t touch a stand alone from a performance standpoint.

Don´t know how aware you are of it,but we´ve learned to extract insane amounts of power mainly by understanding timing needs under boost.
How would you adjust a KE/EZL setup when being optimum for NA use when going turbo,and what´s more...at what cost?
In short,when you´re getting into turbocharging..please give the SA some thought.
If nothing else to keep your own sanity so you won´t be running up the walls in the long run.

Having said that, we´re nowhere into this from a dynamic driving point of view,economics asf asf..list simply goes on and on.
Modern,digital electronics will beat an old mechanical system every time...as there´s this little thing called evolution.

Don´t get me wrong.
Anything man made can be modified to work under different parameters than it was setup to do,but the point is that in the case of the KE it simply isn´t cost effective,and when done you STILL won´t touch the resolution or adjustability available with a stand alone system .

As for transmission failures...again no offense,but you have no idea what you´re talking about.
Me and Roman both run stock units,and you have to cross the 600hp line for real to start experiencing trouble.
In my case i´m currently running like 500 ,and i´m on slicks down the 1320 every now and then in the 11s bracket,and mind you this with my daily beater.(IOW the poor getrag has to take some severe punishment-and it STILL lives)

Agree with Roman and Racing. I'm sure your supplemental injection system works good for your application but it could be better. For instance, With the two extra injectors your using, the intake manifold is obviously running wet. This manifold was engineered to run dry. Now your O2 sensor is telling a different story because it's reading the combined cylinders. However if you were to analyze each individual cylinder you would find that some are running rich and some are lean, most likely cylinders 1 and 6. With a programmable EFI system you can easily eliminate this imbalance. There is always something to gain with more precise inputs and outputs.
Adam

__________________
Current Stable:
01 ML55 AMG
92 500E (a few mods)
87 300E (lots of mods)
00 Chevy 3500HD Diesel Box Truck
68 18' Donzi Marine
06 GT i-Drive7 1.0 Mountain Bike (with GPS!)

PREVIOUSLY OWNED:83 300SD, 87 420SEL, 88 420SEL, 90 420SEL, 86 560SEL, 86 190E 2.3-16V AMG, 94 E320

Appreciate your response and no offense taken.
I've seen the results of "insane" power in Roman's latest engine and transmission self destructing.
Not meant to offend more to give a reality check.

How fast do you want to go with "insane" power and how much will it cost???

Seems like Roman has an unrecoverable investment in his last attempt to go 200MPH !!!

I've just asked reasonable questions of him such as posting his dyno charts, so I can better understand not only how, but why build an M103 to turn 10000RPM, but peak power is made under 7000RPM.

I believe I posted that I am using a very expensive ?( $350.00 !!! ) stand alone additional injector controller to fire the two injectors above the throttle body.
It has a built in MAP sensor so it reads engine speed and manifold absolute pressure which is controlled by a software setting.
Under boost I run 12.5 AFR / .85 Lambda.

I dyno'd and tuned on a Mustang load dyno.
Produced 196HP and 220LBFT torque.
Far from "insane", perhaps laughable to most much younger then I.

But yet with meager numbers, I'm able to run 0-60 in 5.49 seconds in 90 degree F / high humidity ambient.
You seem to have knowledge of "insane" turbo installs, so I guess you will realize that dropping ambient temp 40 degrees with low humidity should improve acceleration by 3 to 4 tenths.

Not bad for an antiquated semi electronic fuel injection system.

Know very well the "theory of evolution" as applied to the modern internal combustion engine.

How much in time and material did Roman spend on his recently "deceased" motor ???
Is that considered cost effective...help me with his HP/$$$ ratio so I can better understand how cost effective your engine building is !

Correct me if I'm speaking out of turn, but didn't Roman destroy a transmission per his posting???

No offense but if you are making 500RWP, then your at around a 6-7LB/HP power to weight ratio.
On slicks I would think you should be under 11 seconds and trapping 130MPH +.
Unless of course the power to weight calculations no longer hold true !!!

I hope you are not offended, but I'm an old guy whose gone very fast in his life, and am trying to understand where I'm going wrong.
My results aren't telling me, but I'm open to knowledge !!!

Adam

Not sure where you were when Willi Mosselman did the first twin turbo kit on the M103 back in 1990.
Do you recall his "Silver Arrow" 300CE and 300SL ???
He was not a fan of additional injectors, so he used an adjustable piggy back controller that in essence allowed the EHA to supply more fuel.

TurboTechnics from the UK believed in additional injectors.
Their weak point was in their non adjustable fuel enrichment controller which tended toward lean under boost.
They attempted to compensate by using Hobbs switches off the manifold to trick the EHA to a full throttle condition and to retard the timing under boost.
Not the best resolve of an engineering problem !

I purchased one of the remaining TurboTechnics kits from the UK authorized Merc dealer who commissioned them for install on new cars in 1991. ( They are still all running in the UK, some with close to 200K miles !!!)
Delivered to my door it was $2600.00 and included a complete large bore ( 2.25" ) stainless steel exhaust system.
Also for any turbo afficionado, they had cast iron turbo manifolds which are much, much better then fabricated tubing !!!

The install was on my 1988 300CE ( purchased new in may 1988 for $53K) M103-12V with 63K miles

SOOOOOO.... can you say "cost effective".

Kit uses two small Garrett T2's, zero lag as they spool up much faster then a larger turbine.
Torque comes in instantly and the performance is faster then a 500E and approaching " Hammer" numbers.

The key to unlocking the real power was to discard the supplied piggy back electronics and use a Split Second AIC unit.
Computer programmable and 3D mappable.
This along with modernizing the intake and boost piping along with a ram air intake made a substantial difference.

So back to the "wet" manifold that you are concerned about.
TT used an interesting injector assembly with an air shield that appears to maintain a mist and doesn't allow the fuel to drop out of the airstream prior to getting to the stock injectors in the runners.
There has been no sign of any noticeable variance in the cylinders as the plugs after many dyno hours read all about the same.


Don't knock "cost effective" old school that can keep up with all but the latest M3's !!!!
You could always do something better, but when you trash an engine trying to make "insane" power, you really haven't achieved a thing, let alone "doing it better"
Remember this is a straight "street" car.....
Watch out for guys that could be your grandfather driving "unsophisticated" cars....they might smoke you !!!

To be honest no $$$ at all, I am sponsered by mercedes jankyard so I have about 3 more M103 to blown away. I just wanna se how much they can handle. I stil dont know yet becaurse my last engine broke becaurse of I forgot to put a clamp to water hose on radiator and the hose came loose when I was racing with motorcykle and not because of high boost and high RPM.
Next target is 2,5bar!

By the way even if i did not have a jankyard sponsor I could by the M103 just for some 400-700$ on junkyard. Not big money at all to run 700hp with. And the only think I need to repare on my broken engine is bearings, its about 200$. So the damage was not so expensive.

You should know hat the engine was not new and been using for 400000km and stil handle so much power

About high RPM so I will order a turbo camshaft and maybe put a little beat bigger turbinhouse becaurse M103 high RPM are amazing, its sounds and feels amazing!

To drive w124 or w201 with 600+++Hp is something you must feel "live" to understand WHY some poeple never get happy with 0,5bar

And about tranny we allready have a few good solutions, next season will tell

__________________
MB 300E 24v Turbo MS3X


TURBOCHARGE YOUR MERCEDES

www.turbobandit.com
My band!
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Turbobandit/135610656626424?fref=ts

Don't take me wrong, the lean condition I am describing would be pretty far from smoking a cylinder but none the less, the unbalance is still there. I wouldn't be so concerned with vapor dropping out as much as not making it to the intake runner. You say yourself that you switched the the Split Second supplemental because you thought the kit's stock enrichment needed improvement. I believe we are all just saying there is room for more improvement by switching to EFI. Now, weather or not springing $1200 or more for the better torque and throttle response with the same amount of boost is worth it to you, that's another matter. You may be perfectly happy with what you have already and by the way, you did a very nice job! If you do eventually go for EFI I think you will enjoy tuning it. Just remember you haven't even messed around with ignition timing yet. You'll be amazed by what a few degrees here and there does for you!
Enjoy!
Adam

__________________
Current Stable:
01 ML55 AMG
92 500E (a few mods)
87 300E (lots of mods)
00 Chevy 3500HD Diesel Box Truck
68 18' Donzi Marine
06 GT i-Drive7 1.0 Mountain Bike (with GPS!)

PREVIOUSLY OWNED:83 300SD, 87 420SEL, 88 420SEL, 90 420SEL, 86 560SEL, 86 190E 2.3-16V AMG, 94 E320

How many hours did it take you to do your fabrication and build your engine?

This is what I really fail to comprehend.
You're claiming to achieve 9000+ RPM with a M103-12V.
So at what RPM are you producing peak power and torque?

You previously posted running at 9000RPM and attempting a 0-200MPH run.
9000 RPM with 3.07 gearing would theoretically calculate to about 210 MPH.
Amazing that you claim to reach speeds with a .37cd that exotic super cars fail to reach.
AMG was never able to get more then 180 +/- with a W124.

No offense intended but would really like to see your dyno charts, especially the one where you indicated over 10K rpm.

I'm interested in the shape of the power curve !

Thanks



Last time I drove a 600HP vehicle was 1972, so I more then know how it feels to run fast in a straight line.

Adam

How does the EFI adjust individual cylinder fuel feed from the O2 sensor loop?.
Doesn't it use one wide band O2 sensor, that is no different then what I use, that reads the combination of more then one cylinder ?
Do you have the ability to read individual cylinder Lambda ?

I'm running twin turbos, in essence two three cylinder engines running on the same crank shaft.
True 2.25" dual exhaust thru two in line Magnaflow spun metal cats.
Pipes do not commingle exhaust gases until they reach the rear silencer.
Each pipe has a wide band O2 sensor for tuning purposes.
Vehicle was run on the dyno while reading the Lambda AFR from the O2 sensors.
Fuel mapping and timing was adjusted and locked in when we got max power.
The R2 software has initial settings.
Logically the setting would be 6 cylinder 4 stroke, but a "tuner" trick is to set at 3 cylinder 2 stroke.
This doubles the pulse firing of the injectors under boost conditions.
Keep in mind that the fuel delivery system in essence is between two "pumps".
You're seeing a positive boost discharge from the intercooler and a negative suction from the engine.
No different in theory but much more efficient in how a carburetor delivers an even air fuel mixture equally thru intake runners to each cylinder. !

Ed A.

I hear ya.
As i´m not axactly 22 either,and indeed do this for a living i´ll try and sort it out for you.

Main point for a stand alone isn´t really the gospel of fuel as often touted.
Fuel COULD be injected by the use of a hose if need be.(Emulsion needs disregarded)
It is one of 3 dimension adjustable timing.
What we´ve learned over the years is that the need for induced turbuluence/swirl goes down with boosted engines as swirl needed for instance for a NA engine is already induced to a large degree by the huffer.
That,coupled with the increased dynamic compression ratio will diminish the need of ign timing to a large degree as boost comes on.
When and where as far as engine character is easily adjusted with a SA-which can´t really be said for other setups.Cells of a good SA will interpolarize for what it´s worth btw.
It will also make boosted engines very sensitive to it in comparsion to an NA engine.
A mere 2 deg can make for a world of difference in power as well as behaviour.

As you adjust timing in 3D over a matrix on a SA it stands to reason that we can cater more or less exactly to engine needs and character in a way not possible with other setups-and...it will make for some BIG dividents in power.
An EGT helps a ton when performing this,but more so understanding what it tells you.

Now..i for one am not running the 6 pot 103.I´m using a 4 banger 16V.The 102.983.
Nor am i making 500 at the wheel (never claimed to)but as a fair guestemate at the crank,and instead of letting my yapper go off til end of time...

Haulin ass

Flick isn´t exactly representative tho,as;
a/I run a mere 1.2 bars of boost
b/Because i´m an idiot i ran on a mere 8deg of timing as i lost TPS signal-which in turn made the ECU believe we were going for idle(electronic idle control activated)-simply my bad,but happens i guess.
ECU pulled 15deg of timing trying to make the engine reach idle...

Here´s another of one of the boys within the "gang" around here.Gordon

1320 feet and then some...

Altho close to 11...it´s STILL a 220km/h trap,indicating that the oumph is there for a 9 sec run with chassis work.(See...i´m an old dragracer too)

Representative of a beater chassis i´d say-from a dragracing point of view.
Tires are ET street btw.

Roman then...
I think you got the man wrong.
It was once said that the price of progress is trouble(John Kettering),and some of us have no problem blowing crap shy high to find the limits-IMO for the benefit of all.
The engine Roman just blew into orbit wasn´t a built one.It was to the letter OEM from stuttgart,and atop of that...with a number of miles on it.
As for my own rustbucket..it´s been running like a champ for the last 20 000US miles-and is still ticking.
Over time i´ve blown;
a/2 headgaskets.My own "fault" in hunt for a working and powerful timing table under boost.
b/1 valve shim.Simply cracked it.
I´ve lost track of how many people i´ve given a ride in the POS(whcih can be attested by a number of customers across europe by now)...i´ve lost track of how many streetraces i´ve won(and nope..streetracing looks way different than over in the US around here).In fact,to a degree where the POS rustbucket hasn´t been beat for the last 2yrs on the street.
(Not entirly true,i got beat by a tuned Honda 900cc fireblade in an iprovised 1/8 mile streetrace once-on the other hand i wasn´t on slicks at the time)
Mind you,this on a motor that has NOT been overhauled,bored et al,and has NOT had parts thrown at it like they were going out of style(apart from cams it´s all OEM components).In fact,as of current i run a piston play along the lines of 0.5mm.
In fact,total cost of project is along the lines of 3500 dollars including sinter clutches,turbos,SAs and slicks.Then again that isn´t representative as i´m really really in the loop.New motor and car coming up is a different matter tho.
(Current one was and is my winter beater)

Again.
Price of progress is trouble,and when looking for optimum timing tables,AFRs asf...you bust parts.Hopefully not stuff that takes forever to mend.

But...
200hp is a FAR cry from 600,and it would be safe to say that pushing 450-500 out of a stock 103 is a breeze.
Pushing shy of 400 out of the 102.983..same thing,(Limited by stock conrods IMO),but then at a lesser degree of boost thanks to the flow of the valver.

Anyways.
Getting tech again,let me assure you that running piggys isn´t the best of solutions either.
No matter if they´re MF2s,SMT6s,PIC5s or what have you.
Main reason being that most-look above-don´t interpolarize.
Further,one of the major culprits would be the mercedes trigger element for the EZL,as it is "built" in a way most modern setups won´t read.
Mercedes and Audi alike uses a negative pulse to arm the systems-which is in contrast with most others and hence also most piggys as well as SAs.
(Most other systems arm on the first positive pulse from the VR or Hall)

On indiviual injector trim.Agreed.
True enough there IS such a thing as sequential,but for the record most have no idea,and what´s more the power to be found by the use of it is a laugh compared to just uppin the boost by 0.05 bars..IOW..no point seing the time and money that needs to be invested.(Which is a LOT for those not into this)
IMO an internet thingy for the most part...as you can´t market a SA for the love of god if it isn´t sequential in operation these days.99.99% of all customers wouldn´t know what sequential operation takes as far as performance if it hit them over the head.They still crave it from the ECU tho...

As you seem clued in on this..
Just imagine the strength of being able to LOG for instance EGT vs AFR and timing values,and have an electronic over ride to go with it during mapping.

What´s more..you´re NOT correct on the WB setup.
System i use at least has two such inputs standard,and can be built to take 6 if needed.No sweat.(IOW you COULD put one in each primary if the need arises)
Likewise it has two inputs for EGTs as well.(which in turn can be modded to take more of them)


No.Cast iron is most def NOT the ultimate material for turbo hedders.
Just to prove my point,when we´re bulding high end turbo motors over here,obviously not completely without merit, one of the things that will affect spool to a great extent is hedder primary lenght coupled with collector phasing,entry angle and pipe diameter.
Cast iron will also scale just as will steel,just at somewhat elevated temps.
What i use is Inconel reinforced,acid resistant steel,and that will take it(Granted...it´s a dayum arm and a leg tho).Inxs of 1200degC,and this at elevated pressures(of which a turbo engine won´t even get close by industrial standards).
By the use of longer primarys(600mm up) we´ve found out that the turbo won´t affect the engines running behaviour in the same manner as boost goes up,and spool will follow suite.
Further,but trimmin primary lenght we also get away with building the basic engine up in a manner similar to its NA counterpart as far as camshafts and what have you.
We can increase timing as exhaust dilution is kept down-and as a result power will go up.

Funny you mention spool,cause there´s a LOT to be said from that respect,and we´ve investigated the subject to great extent much due to a bunch of poor racers up north that were determined to make the big ass huffers work on small displacement engines.
...and they did.
To a degree where it is important to even keep turbo oilpressure under wraps and control(it will affect spool in a very solid way too)

Guess what i´m trying to say is that there´s a LOT more to this than meets the eye.

On the K systems then.
I´m old enough to have been around when they were all we had to play with.
Have had the plunch heads modded beyond belief to make them cope fuel wise.
Just a couple of yrs back i set out to show the young ones that it indeed CAN be done with an old Porsche i had around,and in doing so-revisiting the K- i surely understood what i had forgotten over time.
In short,seing how much i had to mod,how labour intense it was...NEVER again.Ever.(Used an SMT6 to control timing retard and ad-on fueling over two 480cc bosch injectors)

As i said,i do this for a living,and frankly speaking a fairly good one too.
Setting a SA up these days is easy enough if you know what you´re doing,and even the novice is capable of it if one just takes fair share of time.

I´m currently taking the valver another step...





...gives you an idea.
This time...aiming for INSANE levels of power.
..and..modding the OEM getrag 275 to hopefully take it.

Still...with the intention of keepin it real,and keepin it for the street.

Correct.
If you missed that piece of info he´s on the other hand passed 600hp.

Thank you...appreciate the technical response !

My intent was not to negate any of Roman's achievements.
I have asked many times for him to post a dyno chart so I can see the shape and magnitude of the curve.
Claims of a 10K RPM motor make me extremely curious.
200MPH also raised my eyebrows as it would require 1100+ HP and not sure if a .37 cd of a W124 sedan would allow such an achievement.
AMG had difficulty around 180MPH.

I can understand your application on the Cosworth head 16V engine.
Two valve per cylinder engines as the M103 tend not to be conducive for many reasons at high RPM's.

I fully understand the application of the SA management.
But wasn't the word "cost effective" being used?
I saw a whole lot of "expensive" internals in Roman's posts, hence my initial questions.

My post was simply to state that the stock M103-12V engine with untouched internals can be made to put out enough power to keep up with late model AMG and M cars.
It's a challenge to work with a semi electronic injection system and it can be extremely cost effective even including a learning curve to adapt with more sophisticated control on a TT application with supplemental injectors.
When you grow up on carbs, the semi electronic injection makes a bit more sense.

I am of the school that a street engine should be built primarily with reliabilty as the foremost concern.

My comment on the cast iron manifolds addresses this point.
I know of no tubular product that will not over time be affected by thermal cycling which results in leakage at the flange.
Very rare to see a machined cast iron manifold face surface become untrue.

Convince Roman to post his dyno results when he completes his 10K rpm motor !!!

Agreed 100%.

My new one is the exception to the rule,cause altho intended for the street...it´s anything but a street engine anymore.
Multiple disc sinters,full bore 3.5" exhaust aso..the full 9 yards IOW.

FWIW.
I´d say that the "cost effectiveness" is a matter of opinion,cause if you value time-your own-at all...
Look at it this way.
I personaly use the swedish VEMS SA.
It runs approx 1000 bux ready built.
Atop of that you need various sensors and injectors leaving you with a total around 2 grand.(Injectors,FPR,Fuelrail,sensors,wires and sheaths for them)
You get the box with EGT input and wideband lambda sensor for those 1000 bux.

Now,with those 2 grand invested you still need to install it yourself,which is straightforward enough.
Then it´s a Q of getting the whole thing adjusted.

Thing is...
If you add up the cost of the piggy coupled with hotter spark,injectors needed ,the WB setup aso...it´ll most def get to be a penny or two as well,and the major culprit here is that due to the vastly higher resolution and realtime adjustability the SA will beat the "modded" OEM piece hands down 10 times out of 10 from every perspective there is.
Further,that you CAN wring your laptop out and just go at it with the ease you do makes for it to indeed happen.
Instead of spending hrs and hrs on end...you spend minutes.

List goes on.

But..that´s just my opinion.
To a degree where i haven´t installed an aftermarket chip or similar in the last 10yrs as i just refuse to when the SAs of today are as afforable as they are.

Agreed that these engines can most def be made to not only keep up with the "M" cars et al,they can be made to leave them behind like a bounced check..

(Funny u mention it,cause it said with bold letters written with an ink marker on my boot lid...
"WHO THE F IS "M"?"

Subject of manifolds.
It´s ALL a matter of material.
Trust me.

You will not...i repeat,you WILL not...warp inconel.
For the sake of argument,altho what i use is the 600 stuff...the 718 is used...as heat protection the underside of the spaceshuttle.
Temps will have turned your cast iron piece to a molten piece of metal b4 the inconel turns in the towel.

May I quote you ?

I think we tend to agree on the technicals.

I guess my difficulty with any claims made on forums, be they substantiated or not, tend to give those that have no conception of time or cost to build a vehicle, a false sense of what they can achieve !!!

I tend to question based on my knowledge, in hopes to open the eyes of those who will jump in and start taking the head off the engine, then not know what to do with it.

In a way, a bit of a "cynic" or "devil's advocate"

I still would really like to see the dyno chart of any M103/M104 that you know of that is capable of close to 10K RPM.

My goal as the weather cools a bit is to get my brought up to date, "period" TurboTechnics install to run 0-60 in close to 5 seconds flat.
Keep in mind auto trans and 3.07 gearing.
Will complete the tune hopefully under 1/4 testing and believe I will see mid 13's and 100+ mph.
Trying to perform as the new 335 TT Bimmer does at a fraction of the cost !

"Iconel".....I will not dispute the use of this alloy in high temp applications.
Very familiar with its performance in process industry installations..
Kind of costly too !!!

You're light years ahead of material choices from the majority of USA fabricators.
Took a long time to use stainless in instead of carbon steel, both of which lack the thermal cycling properties of inconel...

See you can teach an old dog new tricks !!!