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  #31  
Old 12-21-2008, 12:33 PM
300EVIL's Avatar
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Location: Lake Geneva, WI.
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WOW! Sounds like your project was a success! However, If you could manage to get some dyno time along with a WBO2 in the tailpipe. You'd then have some real data to look at. It's not cheap but it would be adventagious to you as numbers would really help sell your kit if you plan on producing them.
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Current Stable:
01 ML55 AMG
92 500E (a few mods)
87 300E (lots of mods)
00 Chevy 3500HD Diesel Box Truck
68 18' Donzi Marine
06 GT i-Drive7 1.0 Mountain Bike (with GPS!)

PREVIOUSLY OWNED:83 300SD, 87 420SEL, 88 420SEL, 90 420SEL, 86 560SEL, 86 190E 2.3-16V AMG, 94 E320

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  #32  
Old 12-22-2008, 01:33 AM
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yea sounds like it works well! im sorry about all my sceptical questions!
it all worked well in the end, and ur obviously like me with the fact that you made it yourself and it works makes it so much cooler
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  #33  
Old 12-22-2008, 07:25 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,276
No apologies needed, I posted here about it so that you guys could come up with some things I didn't consider. Criticism is appreciated, though it appears that the controller does indeed work as designed. I did all my driving today with it on the car but I don't think I got in closed loop much at all. It was so cold that with the heat blowing inside the engine wouldn't warm up enough to get out of open loop. So much for trying to measure an MPG improvement over this tank of gas.
__________________
90 300TE 4-M

Turbo 103, T3/T04E 50 trim
T04B cover .60 AR
Stage 3 turbine .63 AR
A2W I/C, 40 LB/HR
MS2E, 60-2 Direct Coil Control
3" Exh, AEM W/B O2
Underdrive Alt. and P/S Pulleys,
Vented Rear Discs, .034 Booster.
3.07 diffs 1st Gear Start

90 300CE 104.980
Milled & ported head, 10.3:1 compression
197° intake cam w/20° advancer
4° ignition advance
PCS TCM2000, built 722.6
600W networked suction fan
Sportline sway bars
V8 rear subframe, Quaife ATB 3.06 diff
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  #34  
Old 01-03-2009, 01:05 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,276
I did a lot of driving over the holidays. Almost all of which was with the controller pulling fuel out. I managed to increase my average fuel mileage by 3.5 MPG!!! Sure wish I had this back over the summer when gas was at 4$ a gal. That increase in MPG was with various amounts of lean running and not just full lean so there is probably just a little bit more MPG to be had. Granted it's no powerhouse running lean but it does still go down the road just fine. I havn't noticed any pinging at all, even at the full lean setting but the weather is cool and the air is thin up here near Denver. It may be a different story when summer gets here.

Still no negative issues, no C/E light, or problems to report.
__________________
90 300TE 4-M

Turbo 103, T3/T04E 50 trim
T04B cover .60 AR
Stage 3 turbine .63 AR
A2W I/C, 40 LB/HR
MS2E, 60-2 Direct Coil Control
3" Exh, AEM W/B O2
Underdrive Alt. and P/S Pulleys,
Vented Rear Discs, .034 Booster.
3.07 diffs 1st Gear Start

90 300CE 104.980
Milled & ported head, 10.3:1 compression
197° intake cam w/20° advancer
4° ignition advance
PCS TCM2000, built 722.6
600W networked suction fan
Sportline sway bars
V8 rear subframe, Quaife ATB 3.06 diff
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  #35  
Old 01-22-2009, 11:17 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2000
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Duxthe1,

I just found this thread, and am VERY intrigued. I have recently been talking to a fellow enthusiast about this very subject; fooling the ECU via a modified 02 sensor output. (However, the intended application is not a CIS or CIS-E car, but instead LH-SFI M119 applications.)

The CIS-E cars have a certain degree of simplicity which is very much in your favor; I believe getting the ECU to “digest” an altered signal is fairly straightforward and WILL work well, as you have discovered. (It would also work for the older CIS systems with a frequency valve instead of an EHA.) I applaud your inventiveness & diligence in developing the methodology. I particularly like the idea of being able to adjust the mix on the fly.

I was not looking at partial load situations, but strictly full load enrichment. I had envisioned a much cruder system: using a resistor to drop the voltage sensed by the ECU, thereby feeding a false lean condition with the modified signal being switched into & out of the circuit via a double pole relay tied into the kickdown switch. Unfortunately, this is where my ignorance of the LH-SFI system comes into play – if they go open-loop at full throttle, then my idea will not work - it would then take an actual re-mapping of the fuel flows burned into the LH unit. (And I do know that the 1992 LH systems DID have WOT enrichment, but probably not “enough” to achieve full power potential in lieu of emissions & catalyst life expectancy)

Also, being an MB tech and therefore being MUCH more knowledgeable than myself, I was wondering if there is any way to adjust the basic lambda settings on an LH car? (and if so, would that only effect idle settings, or would it shift the entire fuel map commensurately? (the only analogy I can think of is when adjusting an old (non-lambda) CIS car with a hex key near the fuel distributor head, OR adjusting the control pressure via modifying the warmup regulator.)

I would LOVE to hear your feedback on this stuff!

Thanks in advance!


P.S. - If you are planning on producing these controllers as kits, you will find a much wider market if you were to include the LH-SFI cars in your target market. Meanwhile, if you need a guinea-pig to test your prototype on an LH-SFI car…

P.P.S. On your friend’s stroked 500SL, was this simply a long-throw (5.6) M117 crank into a M117 engine, or into a M119?
__________________
Current rolling stock:
1992 500E 217,000+
1995 E300D 412,000+
1998 E300D 155,000+
2001 E320 227,000+
2001 E320 Wagon, 177,000+
1995 E420 135,000+

Prior MBZ’s:
1952 220 Cab A
1966 300SE
1971 280SE
1973 350SLC (euro)
1980 450SLC
1980 450SLC (#2)
1978 450SLC 5.0
1984 300D ~243,000 & fondly remembered
1993 500E - sorely missed.
1975 VW Scirocco w/ stroked, slightly de-tuned Super-Vee engine - Sold after 30+ years of ownership.
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  #36  
Old 01-22-2009, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RunningTooHot View Post
Duxthe1,

I just found this thread, and am VERY intrigued. I have recently been talking to a fellow enthusiast about this very subject; fooling the ECU via a modified 02 sensor output. (However, the intended application is not a CIS or CIS-E car, but instead LH-SFI M119 applications.)
Works on a KE-Jetronic ...concept or mod to the LH-SFI?

http://www.autotech.com/prod_engine_pwrmod.htm
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1971 280SL ROADSTER
1988 300CE TWIN TURBO WIDEBODY
1994 E320 CABRIOLET
1999 C43 AMG
2005 G55K AMG
2008 CLK63 AMG BLACK SERIES
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  #37  
Old 01-22-2009, 10:31 PM
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Posts: 3,276
As built my controller should be able to work on any system that uses a single oxygen sensor. That pretty much excludes most if not all of the LH-SFI stuff, possibly not on some of the early ones, maybe. Interfacing with the mass air flow meter signal is the generally accepted way to tune most EFI. I built the controller to give us CIS cars a way to alter the mixture.

So far I've got around 1k mi on the car with the controller in charge of the O2 signal. So far so good.

My buddys SL is an 84 500 Euro block with the 560 crank rods and pistons.

There is no basic adjustment on a US spec LH-SFI. There are a few ways you could hack it but nothing simple.
__________________
90 300TE 4-M

Turbo 103, T3/T04E 50 trim
T04B cover .60 AR
Stage 3 turbine .63 AR
A2W I/C, 40 LB/HR
MS2E, 60-2 Direct Coil Control
3" Exh, AEM W/B O2
Underdrive Alt. and P/S Pulleys,
Vented Rear Discs, .034 Booster.
3.07 diffs 1st Gear Start

90 300CE 104.980
Milled & ported head, 10.3:1 compression
197° intake cam w/20° advancer
4° ignition advance
PCS TCM2000, built 722.6
600W networked suction fan
Sportline sway bars
V8 rear subframe, Quaife ATB 3.06 diff
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  #38  
Old 01-22-2009, 10:46 PM
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Location: Jeffersonville, Indiana
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The rear o2 sensor of most SFI cars doesn't affect the fuel trims of the car, including Mercedes, so I think your controller would work. It would be helpful to tune the closed loop fueling of the car, making the transition from closed loop to open loop smoother when making custom fuel maps.
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1997 Mercedes E320 Turbo
Garrett T3/60-1 Turbocharger
Custom Water Intercooler Setup
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  #39  
Old 01-23-2009, 10:04 AM
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I believe all LH-SFI use a single O2 sensor. The dual sensors didn't start until ME injection rolled out in 1996, AFAIK. Interesting idea about modifying the MAF signal on LH cars, though!

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Dave M.
Boise, ID

1997 E420 - 155kmi (Bugeyes)
1994 E420 - 145kmi (Blondie)
1993 500E - 193kmi (Lollipop)
1992 400E - 189kmi (Stinky Dirty)
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  #40  
Old 01-23-2009, 01:38 PM
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RBYCC - Thanks for the suggestion, but that unit works by feeding a false signal directly to the EHA, therefore it is not applicable to LH-SFI systems.

Turbo E320 - I believe that the function of any second (post-cat) O2 sensor is strictly to provide feedback on catalyst efficacy.

GSXR is correct, the LH-SFI systems ARE single 02 sensor systems, therefore (in theory) this type of signal "correction" could work.

Duxthe1: Any interest in potentially expanding your market beyond CIS-E?

P.S. I'd love to hear more about setting the baseline lambda mix on LH-SFI cars, even though it is a "difficult" hack. Nothing worthwhile is easy.. (usually)
__________________
Current rolling stock:
1992 500E 217,000+
1995 E300D 412,000+
1998 E300D 155,000+
2001 E320 227,000+
2001 E320 Wagon, 177,000+
1995 E420 135,000+

Prior MBZ’s:
1952 220 Cab A
1966 300SE
1971 280SE
1973 350SLC (euro)
1980 450SLC
1980 450SLC (#2)
1978 450SLC 5.0
1984 300D ~243,000 & fondly remembered
1993 500E - sorely missed.
1975 VW Scirocco w/ stroked, slightly de-tuned Super-Vee engine - Sold after 30+ years of ownership.

Last edited by RunningTooHot; 01-23-2009 at 01:45 PM.
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  #41  
Old 01-23-2009, 11:16 PM
300EVIL's Avatar
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Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Lake Geneva, WI.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duxthe1 View Post
Interfacing with the mass air flow meter signal is the generally accepted way to tune most EFI.
Exactly, The O2 sensor in "most" fuel injection systems have very little "say so" in mixture adjustment. If you're running LH injection it would be best to look at altering the mass air signal for fuel enrichment as duxthe suggested. In fact, I have a piggyback controller for this application if anyone wants to buy it.
__________________
Current Stable:
01 ML55 AMG
92 500E (a few mods)
87 300E (lots of mods)
00 Chevy 3500HD Diesel Box Truck
68 18' Donzi Marine
06 GT i-Drive7 1.0 Mountain Bike (with GPS!)

PREVIOUSLY OWNED:83 300SD, 87 420SEL, 88 420SEL, 90 420SEL, 86 560SEL, 86 190E 2.3-16V AMG, 94 E320

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  #42  
Old 01-24-2009, 01:12 AM
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Posts: 3,276
As far as being able to hack an adjustment for the basic fuel delivery, I have two words.... fuel pressure.

In years past I have taken a bosch style fuel pressure regulator and cut off the dimpled end and replaced it with a threaded adjuster. Not exactly pretty but very effective.
__________________
90 300TE 4-M

Turbo 103, T3/T04E 50 trim
T04B cover .60 AR
Stage 3 turbine .63 AR
A2W I/C, 40 LB/HR
MS2E, 60-2 Direct Coil Control
3" Exh, AEM W/B O2
Underdrive Alt. and P/S Pulleys,
Vented Rear Discs, .034 Booster.
3.07 diffs 1st Gear Start

90 300CE 104.980
Milled & ported head, 10.3:1 compression
197° intake cam w/20° advancer
4° ignition advance
PCS TCM2000, built 722.6
600W networked suction fan
Sportline sway bars
V8 rear subframe, Quaife ATB 3.06 diff
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  #43  
Old 01-24-2009, 01:31 AM
300EVIL's Avatar
Moderator Incarnate
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Lake Geneva, WI.
Posts: 1,676
Quote:
Originally Posted by duxthe1 View Post
As far as being able to hack an adjustment for the basic fuel delivery, I have two words.... fuel pressure.

In years past I have taken a bosch style fuel pressure regulator and cut off the dimpled end and replaced it with a threaded adjuster. Not exactly pretty but very effective.
Only problem with altering just fuel pressure is that it's very "linear" which engine power curves are not. With this method you'd be running too rich in areas where you should not.
__________________
Current Stable:
01 ML55 AMG
92 500E (a few mods)
87 300E (lots of mods)
00 Chevy 3500HD Diesel Box Truck
68 18' Donzi Marine
06 GT i-Drive7 1.0 Mountain Bike (with GPS!)

PREVIOUSLY OWNED:83 300SD, 87 420SEL, 88 420SEL, 90 420SEL, 86 560SEL, 86 190E 2.3-16V AMG, 94 E320

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  #44  
Old 01-24-2009, 12:38 PM
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Posts: 3,276
I did say it was hack but is more effective than your argument suggests. Since the map is unaltered in the ecu it will run richer for the same inputs across the entire range of delivery. Whether the engine will run better enrichened across the whole map, and whether the ecu will adapt out the enrichment are not addressed.

The last time I used this trick was on a speed density setup where I was pushing 21psi at 2 liters. It was making approx 100hp over stock on a stock ecu.
__________________
90 300TE 4-M

Turbo 103, T3/T04E 50 trim
T04B cover .60 AR
Stage 3 turbine .63 AR
A2W I/C, 40 LB/HR
MS2E, 60-2 Direct Coil Control
3" Exh, AEM W/B O2
Underdrive Alt. and P/S Pulleys,
Vented Rear Discs, .034 Booster.
3.07 diffs 1st Gear Start

90 300CE 104.980
Milled & ported head, 10.3:1 compression
197° intake cam w/20° advancer
4° ignition advance
PCS TCM2000, built 722.6
600W networked suction fan
Sportline sway bars
V8 rear subframe, Quaife ATB 3.06 diff
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  #45  
Old 01-24-2009, 01:26 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2000
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Quote:
...and whether the ecu will adapt out the enrichment are not addressed.
Yes, the ECU would adapt and negate the enrichment, up to the system's inherent adaptation limits. It would do the same with fuel pressure hacks, or anything else where the ECU sees the mix at the 02 sensor as being anything other than stoichiometric. (obviously speaking of closed-loop mode here.) WOT enrichment is one thing, but "on the fly" tweaking during closed-loop operation has some inherent advantages, as Duxthe1 has discovered.

Those are the reasons why I'm so interested in Duxthe1's methodology. Same questions apply:
1.) are you planning to produce this?
2.) would you like to expand into a wider potential market?

I know that there would be PLENTY of interest from certain groups of enthusiasts that have LH cars!
__________________
Current rolling stock:
1992 500E 217,000+
1995 E300D 412,000+
1998 E300D 155,000+
2001 E320 227,000+
2001 E320 Wagon, 177,000+
1995 E420 135,000+

Prior MBZ’s:
1952 220 Cab A
1966 300SE
1971 280SE
1973 350SLC (euro)
1980 450SLC
1980 450SLC (#2)
1978 450SLC 5.0
1984 300D ~243,000 & fondly remembered
1993 500E - sorely missed.
1975 VW Scirocco w/ stroked, slightly de-tuned Super-Vee engine - Sold after 30+ years of ownership.

Last edited by RunningTooHot; 01-24-2009 at 02:39 PM.
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