Tuning with CIS - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

JayRash · #31 03-08-2009, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pentoman

Jay
These can't be right - the order should be either x,x,x,x,N,x,S -- N should be in the middle and S at the extreme end, if you look at the switch.

I think there are different switches. Mine is in the order i posted and with the same resistances. Just get a multimeter and read the resistances and follow same logic of the above list. Should help u narrow down ur advance and retard.

pentoman · #32 03-08-2009, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayRash

I think there are different switches. Mine is in the order i posted and with the same resistances. Just get a multimeter and read the resistances and follow same logic of the above list. Should help u narrow down ur advance and retard.

OKay, well it seems like your market cars are sent out with more safety for bad fuels over there.

JayRash · #33 03-08-2009, 02:47 PM

my car is from switzerland so it could be on the safe side. Any way if ur going with the temp trick it should not be an issue.

400Eric · #34 03-08-2009, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayRash

ERIC,
If you ask me, i would never turbo charge another of my cars again

its just too much trouble, maybe its cause my car has so many miles on it, but every time i stressed my car out on a long run i would be thinking if somethin has went bad with the engine.

yesterday i took my car on 100mile trip in hot temps, and thou the car never overheated nor did it ping once it developed a small miss fire on idle and the breather is smoking more than usuall. now my plugs are way over due for a change and since i have no oil cooler on the m103 it could be cooked oil. any way tomorrow ill compression test the car, if anythin is off, ill be rebuilding the engine.

not that i dont love the way it delivers the power, its just that maybe my car has too much miles on it to take all this abuse. :/

So maybe it's a pain in the butt but it's still a cool car.

400Eric · #35 03-08-2009, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr

Eric, that's a great idea, adding a "dummy" coolant temp sensor that's loose under the hood. One catch - the dash gauge reads from a totally different sensor. So you will never know what the "dummy" sensor is reading, without a digital scanner connected (which will show you the live data from the dummy sensor). That's good though, this way you know the exact engine temp based on the dash gauge.

Regardless, it should still work pretty well - and your tests back that up. I was going to try this myself, with a resistor pack, but I like your idea better since it's easier! Now I just need a 4-pin sensor...

You know, it's a funny thing, I left the dummy sensor on today---just for grins---Went to church, also went to a couple of stores, and I keep wondering why the gauge was reading so high. So we have one sensor for the fans, one for the LH and EZL, and a third one too? Where is it? This means I didn't really know what temp. was being sent to the LH and EZL?

What I'd like to do on the street is let the LH see actual eng. temp. (for good fuel economy) and let the EZL see only what I want it to see via a resistor (which should help both fuel economy and power---the EZL is way too prone to pull ign. advance at the slightest little rise in temp). I just don't know which pins go where.

I can't wait till you start trying this stuff on your E420. Just make sure you've got plenty of rubber under that thing! Regards, Eric

400Eric · #36 03-09-2009, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr

Eric, assuming you have stock wheels & tires mounted, what tire pressure were you running at the dragstrip? With traction problems, I would try lowering the pressure down to the low 20's (I wouldn't go below 20psi (cool/warm) on street tires though). That may help you hook it up. You may also need to start doing a burnout prior to launch, just in front of the waterbox (or are you already doing that?). You generally want to stay out of the waterbox with street tires since the tread will pick up some water and carry it up to the starting line.

205/60 15s at 35psi. As for the rest of your post, I already know those things and act accordingly---I used to race a lot back in the day at Carlsbad and OCIR---always on street tires---I always want to know what my cars run in the real world---on street tires with street gas, no ice on the intake etc. (I think we talked about that before.) In my experience, tire deflation isn't that effective on street tires---that is actually more for the slick running guys. Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords did a story about 10 years ago that backs me on this.
The problem here is that these tires are just too small. Who else is running tires this small? Nobody at that dragstrip yesterday had tires this small. I actually already have the new tires--205/55 16s-- the Goodyears that won the C&D shoot-out not too long ago, But I need 2 more rims. I'm looking for 2 front S-class (W-140) rims---the ones that look like mine only they are 16s not 15s. Are these the rims the 500E/E500 got? And why the "Front only" "Rear only" thing? Do we have to adhere to that when using them on an E class? Regards, Eric

400Eric · #37 03-09-2009, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pentoman

Not true, I believe Porsche or whoever fitted a a different injection system compared to the S class engine they started with (I believe it was LH instead of L which included hot wire intake air mass sensor?). It officially has 21 lbft more of torque from memory.

We didn't get the 500E till 92 and by then it shared it's eng./fuel injection/electronics/etc. with the new W-140 S-class. The 91 500E's set-up (KE Jetronic) came from the 500SL. 92 was the beginning of MB's long overdue phase-out of the KE jetronic system. 92 is also the first year of the new "low deck" 5.0 Regards, Eric

pentoman · #38 03-09-2009, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 400Eric

We didn't get the 500E till 92 and by then it shared it's eng./fuel injection/electronics/etc. with the new W-140 S-class. The 91 500E's set-up (KE Jetronic) came from the 500SL. 92 was the beginning of MB's long overdue phase-out of the KE jetronic system. 92 is also the first year of the new "low deck" 5.0 Regards, Eric

I am very surprised to hear this. This means the early R129 500SL came with KE Jetronic too? I have taken your information and tried to prove it for myself. I am surprised if when designing the M119 they bothered with KE at all, knowing they were moving away from it only 2-3 years later.
Wasn't the 600 from 1991 and it did not have KE Jetronic?

Googling some pics of the 1990 500 engine I found this pic

Is that a fuel distributor at the back? Does that mean it's KE?

and this pic of a 1993

which does not have that.

If it's true shouldn't this mean a 1990-1991 500 engine would have a lot worse power/torque curve than a 1992-? Which hopefully brings us close to topic..

pentoman · #39 03-09-2009, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayRash

I think there are different switches. Mine is in the order i posted and with the same resistances. Just get a multimeter and read the resistances and follow same logic of the above list. Should help u narrow down ur advance and retard.

I have measured mine. I think you have done yours wrong and I think I know why.
Yours:
7. -No resistor = no retard
1. -1.4Kohm resistor = 2 degree retard
2. -1.3Kohm resistor = 4 degree retard
3. -750 ohm resistor = 6 degree retard (standard in US car)
4(S)-470 ohm resistor = 8 degree retard
5. -220 ohm resistor = 10 degree retard
6(N)-0 ohm resistor = 12 degree retard

Mine:
1(S) - open no resistor (infinite resistance)
2 - 2.4 kohm
3(N) 1.3 Kohm
4 - 0.75
5 - 0.47
6 - 0.22
7 - measured 1 ohm resistance so it's just a piece of wire really.

Did you take the switch apart to measure? What I think you have done wrong is measured them at the wrong angle. Did you notice how when you set the switch the position marker is at the 7 o clock position, not 6 o clock position. BUT the connections inside are at the 6 o clock position. Therefore is you just measured the resistors directly its easy to think you are measuring the '7' position when you are in fact measuring the '1' position because they are offset.
What supports that is your number markings no sense - 7 should be for the position with most retard and 1 for the position with least. Why would 1-6 be increasing resistance and increasing retard, but then 7 to be no retard?? It would make '7' the most powerful/efficient position which is wrong.

I assume this is for the 'EZL ECE' switch on the fender(wing), not the 'EZL' switch under the windshield by the ECUs?

edit: this post confirms it
READ!!! Free HP for W201 & W124 owners! (Pictures!)

JayRash · #40 03-09-2009, 12:58 PM

i have to check again, been ages since i read them, and i might have done it as u say. once i check ill let u know, p/n 015 545 08 28 / 9251 06

on a sad note i blew a piston ring on my TTm103

gsxr · #41 03-09-2009, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pentoman

3. -750 ohm resistor = 6 degree retard (standard in US car)

I seriously doubt that USA-spec cars came delivered with 6° of retard. Do you have any documentation to prove that? AFAICT, US-spec cars came with zero retard (full power).

gsxr · #42 03-09-2009, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 400Eric

You know, it's a funny thing, I left the dummy sensor on today---just for grins---Went to church, also went to a couple of stores, and I keep wondering why the gauge was reading so high. So we have one sensor for the fans, one for the LH and EZL, and a third one too? Where is it?

It's right next to the other sensors. 4-pin is for LH+EZL, 2-pin is for the fans, and the 1-pin connector is for the dash gauge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 400Eric

This means I didn't really know what temp. was being sent to the LH and EZL?

Bingo! Only a digital scanner will show you that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 400Eric

What I'd like to do on the street is let the LH see actual eng. temp. (for good fuel economy) and let the EZL see only what I want it to see via a resistor (which should help both fuel economy and power---the EZL is way too prone to pull ign. advance at the slightest little rise in temp). I just don't know which pins go where.

Can't do it. The LH injection systems have logic built in to compare the two values. If they are significantly different, the computers assume a faulty sensor, and will use the higher of the two values. This is mentioned in the factory documentation somewhere (I just read this within the last few weeks).

gsxr · #43 03-09-2009, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 400Eric

205/60 15s at 35psi. As for the rest of your post, I already know those things and act accordingly---I used to race a lot back in the day at Carlsbad and OCIR---always on street tires---I always want to know what my cars run in the real world---on street tires with street gas, no ice on the intake etc. (I think we talked about that before.) In my experience, tire deflation isn't that effective on street tires---that is actually more for the slick running guys.

It makes a real difference in traction, even on street tires. True DOT drag radials (or slicks) run on far lower pressures. Next time you're at the strip, and spinning the tires at 35psi, let 10psi out of the rears and try again. I'll be shocked if you report zero improvement in traction. I find the sweet spot on street tires is generally in the mid-20's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 400Eric

The problem here is that these tires are just too small. Who else is running tires this small? Nobody at that dragstrip yesterday had tires this small. I actually already have the new tires--205/55 16s-- the Goodyears that won the C&D shoot-out not too long ago, But I need 2 more rims. I'm looking for 2 front S-class (W-140) rims---the ones that look like mine only they are 16s not 15s. Are these the rims the 500E/E500 got?

No, they are different. The S-class wheels will have M14 bolt holes and ball seats. You'd need to use special M12 bolts with M14 seats to mount those up. The 500E wheels are specific to the 124 chassis. And they will be too wide, wrong offset, cause clearance issues, etc. You're better off sticking with 7.0 or 7.5 wheels on that car, around ET37-ET40. Tons of choices from the 202, 203, 208, 209, 210, and 170 chassis. Don't screw around with 124 or 129 wheels, that's asking for problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 400Eric

And why the "Front only" "Rear only" thing? Do we have to adhere to that when using them on an E class?

Front/rear only is for clearance, you can run a little wider out back (8.5 with 245's, with the proper offset, is the realistic maximum on a non-500E). Up front, 7.5 with 225's is fine, 8.0 with 235's is pushing it. All of these combos need rolled fender lips, fender spacers, and preferably the strut travel limiters too, as detailed in the AMG wheel install docs on my website.

Uh, btw, we should probably move this discussion into a new thread, don'tcha think? The CIS guys probably aren't interested, lol!

JayRash · #44 03-09-2009, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr

I seriously doubt that USA-spec cars came delivered with 6° of retard. Do you have any documentation to prove that? AFAICT, US-spec cars came with zero retard (full power).

simple proof is that usa spec cars came with fixed resistor value, so some retard was involved, i cant say how much thou.
as for:
"Originally Posted by 400Eric

What I'd like to do on the street is let the LH see actual eng. temp. (for good fuel economy) and let the EZL see only what I want it to see via a resistor (which should help both fuel economy and power---the EZL is way too prone to pull ign. advance at the slightest little rise in temp). I just don't know which pins go where.
Can't do it. The systems have logic built in to compare the two values. If they are significantly different, the computers assume a faulty sensor, and will use the higher of the two values.

"

well on my M103 thats what i did, one value for the timing and one for injection since i didn't much fuel i would run a small resistor value for the injection. dunno if its the same for ur v8.

as for finding the pin to the timing box its fairly easy. just do a connectivity test from the temp pin to one of the plugs in the EZL unit on the fender.

pentoman · #45 03-09-2009, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsxr

Can't do it. The systems have logic built in to compare the two values. If they are significantly different, the computers assume a faulty sensor, and will use the higher of the two values.

This isn't right (if we're talking about a KE sytem). There's 2 sensors because one goes to the injection and one goes to the ignition. You can fool them separately. But the ignition and injection do not communicate and compare values. What you are referring to is the comparison the injection ECU (and as far as I assume the ignition ECU?) does against the current value and the previous value from, say, a few moments earlier. If it varies wildly then the system knows the sensor has become shorted, disconnected, or is basically faulty. Because it knows a temp reading would never change so fast it knows the sensor is faulty. I'm not aware it compares the 2 coolant temperature sensor readings to diagnose a fault (though being Mercedes it would seem sensible)

I believe Jay is right about the standard 6 degrees retard - it's documented pretty well on the infamous 'free hp for w124/w201 owners' thread. What's also documented well though is mixed results (in terms of noticeability) when it comes to returning it to 0 retard.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode