I've been watching this tread periodically, but not lately.
At what stage would you all say this 'project' is at? has anyone mocked anything up yet? I saw mention of 3D Printers, That would reduce the R&D costs tremendously..
I'm interested in putting gears behind my 4.5.

__________________
RIP: 80 300SD
RIP: 79 450SEL
2002 E430 4matic (212,000km)
2002 ML500 'sport'

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a 4.5 is easy. there is a factory 4-speed available, not to mention a factory flywheel.
The factory flywheel is available new for like 1,500$. The transmission is findable (I have 3). Add a clutch, shifter, clutch pedal assembly and change your driveshaft length, and you're good to go.

-CTH

__________________
- cth350@gmail.com
http://www.111lakeside.com/

[QUOTE=PanzerSD;3130786]I've been watching this tread periodically, but not lately.
At what stage would you all say this 'project' is at? has anyone mocked anything up yet? [QUOTE]

M117 and 119 blocks and cranks have been cut down to be scanned, a Getrag 420G front trans section has been mated to a MB auto bell housing as a mock up to be scanned. There has been some talk of making a generic bell, so a 265 (or other) trans could be used, but not everyone is on board with that.

The initial stack up (flywheel, clutch, yoke), has been determined so the once everything is scanned, the CAD modeler can move the housing around as I want.

I am not charging even close to rate for this project, so it does take a back seat from time to time as full rate work comes in, so it is a matter of good, fast, cheep.... pick two kind of thing.

I have shopped around for a scanning house that will do it and after talking to three, one came out and took some pics of the parts to quote. I do not think the group was expecting the quote that came back to scan the parts and post process all the reverent details, so it may very well die here.

[QUOTE=PanzerSD;3130786]
I saw mention of 3D Printers, That would reduce the R&D costs tremendously..
[QUOTE]

That is a misconception that I think the group has as well, modern technology like digital scanning and rapid prototyping saves time, increases accuracy & detail, and is very expensive. There are some advantages in the level of detail and design flexibility with the various processes, but don't think for a second that there is a cost savings with this type and scale of project.

A housing could be made via sintered nylon, but something that size will be very expensive.

Dave's status update is accurate. Right now, there are three of us sharing the costs for this project. I've supplied the blocks and transmissions for the mock up. Others have supplied oil pans and factory bellhousings to test/confirm the work.

All three of us have been ponying up funds to cover Dave's time (which he has been very, very generous with). We are about to complete one of the big hurdles, having a digital data model of the bell prototype and the engine back plates. It calls for a fresh infusion of funds to the tune of 4 grand. If you want in on this project, now is the time to put some serious skin in the game. Cover one quarter of that and you're in.

The rest of the project...
- Produce the CNC steps for the things we intend to build.
They are a custom bell for the 265
A custom bell for the S420
An adapter plate so the S420 can be used with the factory bell.
- A fly wheel design.
- Manufacturing, flywheels, those CNC parts, above.
- Making it fit into a car (you're on your own for that).

Let me ding into that CNC step a little. Once we have the digitized data for the bell and the blocks, for a small hourly rate, a CNC modeller can produce the engineering drawing for anything we want. So far, we figured out that an adapter plate for the 420S would work, but isn't cosmetically appealing to some. We figured that a one piece bell housing the replace the front of the S420 case would be pretty, but also pretty difficult. Lastly, that a single special purpose bell suitable for the 265 tranny could be made with an S420 adapter section to replace the front of the S420 case. That's a combination of complex and efficient, since it means one big run of bell castings rather than several small ones.

If you're not interested in joining our efforts at this stage of the game when we're doing the engineering work and paying the bill for it, feel free to wait until we're done. It's your call.

Thx -CTH

__________________
- cth350@gmail.com
http://www.111lakeside.com/

I am having a hell of a time with my e-mail, so I thought I would post so everyone can get up to speed.

I just boxed up the 420G/M117 housing to send to CTH, he has a friend that may be able to scan it cheaper than the quotes I got.

With a good scan, a model can be generated, and from there several different versions of the bell can be generated on the computer, the tuff part is getting the raw model created, once done, features can be added or removed to create new bell housings for different trans / engine combinations..

If the bell housing scanning goes well. then the next step is to have the M119 block scanned to pick up the bolt pattern and the ignition pick up location so that they can be incorporated into the new bell housing.

I have been totally swamped with government work, but I think this winter will be slower. The next major part will be the fly wheel.

CTH.... The bell housing has the first coat of mud on it but it should be good enough for the scan. Any questions, let me know.

Dave

Hi! Any updates on this?

The "new & improved" S420 bell housing is not at all an easy or cost-effective solution, so it's just sitting on my desk gathering dust at the moment.

Right next to it are mopar & ford small block v8 bell housings, as well as a pair of BMW bell housings (removable 254 & not-removable 240). All are suitable for this project, as is that S420 when you're going the route of an adapter plate behind the motor.

Next up, a suitable flywheel solution and getting that adapter plate made for one of the bells. There are a surprising number of variables involved when you throw products from so many vendors into one pot. The limiting factors are budget (a custom made flywheel is close to 1,000$), and time to address it (both mine and the machinist's).

At the moment, I'm waiting for a used ford truck flywheel to show up. Once it does, I'll see if it's feasible to get the original crank holes filled in and then get the correct bolt pattern drilled.

-CTH

__________________
- cth350@gmail.com
http://www.111lakeside.com/

On the ford FW, after filling holes I'd use a plate under the bolt heads to tie everyting together. ( Some cars do this from the factory.)

Also, here is some info from another one of my threads.

Trans adaptors for OM 60X (should fit M103 / M104)

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Came across this today, ( It would help my M104 to manual trans effort even though the kit is for an auto trans.

Mercedes diesel info


Chevy 700R4 auto trans to Mercedes
We also have a kit for the Following Mercedes diesel engines:
OM601 / OM602 / OM603 / OM604 / OM605 / OM606

These 4, 5, and 6 cylinder engines have a common bolt pattern on the block.
There are NO modifications to either the block or the transmission case, and is easily bolted on at home. This kit retains the original flexplate and starter.
The kit consists of the following items:

1 inch thick aluminum adapter plate
Bolt set
Mini-high torque starter
Flexplate
Crank adapter
All machined parts are American made. The cost is $725.00

Bendtsen’s Transmission Adapters 763 767 4480
13603 Johnson St NE, Ham Lake, MN.

I exchanged a few emails with Bendtsen's way back when. At the time, I wasn't a customer and they weren't interested in engaging in a research project for the v8 project. However they were cordial and knowledgeable.

The metal ring under the bolts is already on the automatic setup. No reason other than overall thickness not to do it on the MT setup.

-CTH

__________________
- cth350@gmail.com
http://www.111lakeside.com/

I’m not a fan of the idea of "filling in the holes and then cutting new ones" Unless it is a billet Steal Fly Wheel I think you are asking for trouble, but that’s just me lol...

I have revisited my notes and looked at the M119 block section and the 420 housing and there is enough of a distance for a thick enough plate to work out nicely.. Should look reasonable too IMOP..

I’m not sure why we went astray on the hybrid housing, but I think it had something to do with the starter bolt up and details such as that.. If we use a BMW ring gear and starter, then the starter will bolt right up to the 420 and engage the ring gear.

As we discussed, the flywheel will need a trigger wheel either machined into it or bolted up to it for the ignition. Mounting the Pick Up on to the housing should not be much of a problem (I think lol)...

I seem to remember buying blank steal flywheels for my dyno way back when... But given that back spacing, crank triggers, and different ring gears will be used, making one specifically for the application may be the best..

Tut, tut.
Its quite naughty to steal flywheels, on the other hand its good practice to use a STEEL flywheel!!

Frank, we should certainly alloy you the latitude of that opinion.

Regarding filling in the holes, that was a "quick opinion" of mine that has to be vetted out by a machinist with an informed opinion (like you Dave ).

My naivety is showing. Given the options of steel, aluminum, billet and "racing" flywheels, how many different material choices are we talking about? I am ignoring "dual mass" for the moment. A nice, 30# steel 5.0l neutral balance flywheel is what I had in mind to try.

Thx -CTH

__________________
- cth350@gmail.com
http://www.111lakeside.com/

If I ever set out to build a dictionary, please feel free to point out my lack of ability to pick out misspellings that the spell check didn't point out. However, I do not build dictionaries... They are of little help when it comes to mating a BMW transmission behind two or three different engine blocks...

If proper spelling is what you are concerned about, then I will be of no use.. probably best to seek out someone who is not good at making things.... LOL

Make sure it is Neutrally Balanced... Some of the SB Fords are externally balanced, (the Chevy SB 400 is externally balanced as well)..

I am finishing up the current phase of the project I am on, and after that, I will look at my notes regarding the use of an adaptor plate, and ruff in some setback dimensions of the flywheel surfaces for the M119/117-420G...

I think you are looking at the 265 to use behind the ford bell housing, and all I have for the 265 is the bell housing dimensions, I do not have anything for the input shaft depth, pilot bearing location, yoke depth, etc.. Also remember that it may be necessary to make an adaptor plate to mount the 265 to the Ford bell housing, and that will take some additional depth away from the input shaft, (in addition to the adaptor plate between the block and bell housing, (which may not be a bad thing)).

With an idea of what the fly wheels need to look like, it will be easer to identify possible candidates from other engines that might be useable..

I will have some time here and there over the next month or so to make an adaptor plate to mate a 420G 6-speed to the M117 and M119 block.

Will be using the BMW ring gear so the starter will bolt up to the trans like it is supposed to. Once the trans is mounted to the block, the flywheel can be designed..