I have found another 500E, closer to home. It is at a mostly BMW shop, on consignment for a friend ofthe owner's. I have seen it; it is very clean. However, he wants to recondition it before I can do a PPI. What i need to know, in the absence of repair records, is how well the car has been taken care of (has 120,000m). I'm hoping he will be honest with me about fluids, etc. At any rate , I will havce a PPI done by my tech, including a leak-down test.
Give me some help. What should I look for that would indicate maintenance or lack of?
And, am I crazy to get one with 120,000m? What value will this car have at 200,000m? Due to the high price of a rebuild, is the effective life of the car 250000?
Help. Lower mileage cars are out of my price range. 21000 tops.
Tom

imho, you're rolling the dice if you don;t know the history of the car... 120K is at the mileage where it may need some attention in the area of wiring harness, throttle body actuator, power steering pump, alternator,etc... What is the probability of the car being in mint condition, all maintenace up to date, and NO records?

__________________
Mark Herzig
1995 E300D 153K
1985 300D 142K (sold)
1979 450SL 122 miles (sold)
1992 500E 127K (sold)
1987 300SDL 132K (sold)
1986 300E 161K (sold)

With all due respect, my opinion is that if your budget is 21K, you cannot really afford a 500E. How much have you allocated for maintenance/repair over the course of the next year? Based on my research - I've been toying with acquiring a 500E - you need at least $5K in reserve, and as much as $10K. Simply put, there's no such thing as a <$30K 500E - you pay for it either up front, or in repairing somebody else's wear, tear, and neglect.

At that milage the car is past due for a timing chain, upper rails, and a few other items. Figure $2K right off the bat for these services.

What jcyuhn makes sense

buying a $20k 500e will definitely net what $20k will buy... which is less of a 500e- than what $30k will buy.

-fad

I'm thinking I should not have passed on the 95 E420, 65km, Starmarked, for 20K. However, once I had driven a 500E, the 400 did not interest me that much. I would rather keep my current car. I have a 92 300E, 160km, that I have had since 100km. It was maintained fastidiously before me, and has been maintained fastidously by me. It has not been terribly expensive, except for the headgasket and valve guides So I know MBs in their 2nd 100,000m, (my third MB). However, two weeks after I bought it, I was regretting not getting a V8. I don't want to have the same regret if I were to buy a 420.
Since this last 500E is at a dealer, an extended warranty is available. If I buy the car, I will get the warranty.

I wish you could of seen and driven my 120,000 mi (now 130,000) 500E that I got for $18,500. One owner, tight, clean, records and still on the original timing chain (not for too much longer though) Its a Benz not a Ford so don't be put off by mileage. Ever bit as fast and solid as a car with half that mileage...trust me.

Depends on who you talk to on the timing chain issue on when to change it. One of my MB tech guys says don't change it unless it warrants it (I find that hard to swallow too), other guy says do it by 150,000 miles...that's probably going to be the biggest and most important thing to watch out for...as for wiring harnesses, alt, p/s pump leaks, blower motor, nitrogen cells, cap/rotor, fluids, O2 sensor, etc, those, in my estimation is normal maint. junk. and will have to be done sometime. Obviously, a 200,000 mile car will have little value if your looking to turn it over for some decent cash after the years...they say the cars will go much past that mile mark with the right maint. and I'm certainly gonna find out.

If that's all the geld you got then go for it if it checks out good and address what needs addressing when it needs it or is recommended. I'd be more suspect of a car that wasn't driven with low mileage and a high price tag. The 120,000 maint. is hardly different than the 60,000 mile maint. Ask your dealer or I can send you a copy of the MB service interval recommendations. Nice that you can get a warranty, I didn't, but don't regret it one bit.

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Jim

1992 500E
2007 CLK63
2003 Audi RS6
2001 Audi allroad

Well stated Ross...and its encouraging to see a high mileage beast like yours and your satisfaction with it....not to beat this to death but some say 120,000 miles in any Benz means its just starting to get broken in...and there's a 325K mile 500E here on the forum. No doubt with a few chains and etc. stuff but it made it there and is still going.

BTW, have you run the VIN with a dealer or MBUSA? I find it hard to believe there are no records, even during the first couple of years of ownership.

As for other opinions; I'd only seriously take the word of a real 500E owner or past owner...$5-10 grand in maint. costs per year is way off base...my first year of ownership has cost me $1500 and with the timing chain and new wheels and tire, brakes and other normal junk I doubt I'll be over $3-4000 this year which should set me straight for the next few years and 20,000 + miles.

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Jim

1992 500E
2007 CLK63
2003 Audi RS6
2001 Audi allroad

Hi Tom, here's my take.

I bought my 500E with 168k last year and couldn't be happier! It was what I could afford at the moment and I have not regretted the decision once. There are plenty of members on this board with various models that go well beyond 300k and I'm not just taking about diesel's. That is because of maintenance. Just because a car has higher miles means nothing in it self, WHAT IS important is that the car has been serviced regularly up to that point and that the records are there. The PO of my car treated the car as a Fleet vehicle, so it received regular check ups to include a Oil Analysis done every 10k, not common but talk about reassuring!

Did you ask why the records are not available? If the Seller is close to the dealership there should not be a problem in this area unless he is hiding something, what I've no idea. If you have taken the car to a trusted Indepenant mechanic and his PPI is OK then you have make the call. Ask how the PO used the vehicle, did he auto-cross it or was it city driving, maybe it was mostly highway miles. Since the dealer should be able to contact the Seller, have him ask for you or see if you can talk with the Seller yourself.

You will need to perform repairs/replacements as they come up, but this is true with any other Mercedes and this model is not unusually high in cost to service, basically no more than a 400E. Have the leakdown performed and see what happens, you already have a general sense of the rest of the car.

Now as far as the resale issue, lets face it, the car is at least 8 years old (what year are you looking at?) and has some miles racked up, so what. Are you buying this as an investment or as a machine that you will most likely keep for many years and that has the ablilty to make you smile every time you drive it no matter how bad a day you are having!

Rebuild price? How many years would it take to get to 250k or even 350k? If you are religious at maintenance then who is to say the engine will not see 400k? These engines will go this far, we just don't have many members here to offer feedback at those levels of miles. If you can't afford to rebuild when the time comes I don't know what to say, I think you have at least 6 years to start saving at 30k miles a year for the engine, Hehe. Other items will come up, but figure out your budget. More importantly have these items checked before you sign on the dotted line. You are already ahead of the game here with all this info on this board.

Good Luck and keep us posted on your thoughts....

I don't believe anyone's claiming $5K-$10K per year for maintenance. My concern is that when purchasing a 120K mile car with no records, the buyer had better have $5K socked away for repair/reconditioning in the first year. Maybe you'll need it, maybe not. But if you don't have it, you may not have a usable 500E either. One owner recently posted that he spent $10K in the first year fixing up his 500E, so it ain't fiction. Subsequent years would be expected to be much more reasonable - $1500 sounds like a good number. I've typically spent $2K-$3K in the first year in bringing used Benzs up to my admittedly high standards. These cars had 100K to 200K miles when purchased, but were much more pedestrian models than a 124.036. Of course, it's always possible to save money by being less picky...

Warantys are great , but know in advance exactly what they cover. Many - particularly on older cars - cover only the engine and transmission internals. That's about 10% of the parts on the car - the other 90% are left to the owner.

ANY used 8 year old car is probably going to need at least a couple thousand bucks into it to bring it up to snuff.

By buying a car without any service history, you take a little more of a gamble, but you can lessen the risk with a good PPI.

With any V-8 MB out of warranty, it's good to keep some cash in the bank (or a low-interest credit line) handy for repairs and maintenance. Things like timing chains, brakes, and fluids/filters can add up. For guys like me used to four-banger bills, I'd want a nice stash for surprises.

And hey, a 500E engine is still just a plain 'ol M119 from the SL. It's high performance, but really durable. I have yet to see with my own eyes a high mileage 500E, but have seen a few early '90's R129 SL500's with 300,000 kilometers, and they were strong and reliable.

And let's face it, an E500 is a super-car, but no GullWing. It's NOT a collector car, and depreciates with time and mileage. Buy one, drive it, and enjoy it.

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John Shellenberg
1998 C230 "Black Betty" 240K

http://img31.exs.cx/img31/4050/tophat6.gif

hey blackmercedes.. if a 500e is not a collector car it sure is a rare one!how many do you have in alberta? not to many considering Canada got only about 120 units out of the whole run!
do you think 63-67 vettes are collectable?i bet you have more than 120 of them in alberta alone!?
collectable ??maybe not to you,but i like the feeling of driving my 500e knowing that ill see more ferraris on the road .

__________________
1992 500E silver
1990 300ce AMG
1993 500e smoke silver-sold
1992 500e sold pearl black-sold
1966 mustang converible 289
1969 camaro x11
1991 ZR-1
1972 corvette roadster
2000 dodge cummins 4x4 sold
1994 e320 sold
1987 560sec Brabus
1987 300E (my first benz)

on paper, the 500e/e500 appears to be:

>not inexpensive (but a relative bargain vs. what you get)
>a car for an aficionado/ enthusiast
>exceptionally/ uniquely engineered & handbuilt w/ top quality materials uncommon to todays megabuck MBs
>relatively rare in N America: less than ~1505 surviving in 2002

but, ...it doesn't currently appear to be recognized as the most serious collector car coveted on earth ....such as a museum piece Gullwing ....maybe in the future? who knows

-fad

I totally respect the 500E/E500.

Tom, I wouldn't be afraid of a higher mileage car....you just have to find the "right" one. May take some time.

As far as a "collector" car, there are/will be may different definitions as to what constitutes this benchmark. For each person, it may be a little different.

Will the 500E ever sell in the collector market for more than original sticker? Quite possibly...

Do I expect to see a 500E at Pebble Beach/Amelia Island in the next 20 years? Perhaps....

Remember the 300SEL 6.3??

True, at this time, the 500E may be "too new" to be considered as classic a machine as a 6.3, Gullwing or 540K. But, as time marches on, the few remaining low mileage and original 500Es will be highly coveted and likely fetch mind-boggling prices.

But, these aren't the late eighties...don't expect to make money on your 500E anytime soon. As John said "Buy one, drive it, and enjoy it."

Over the long term, the 500 depreciates just like any other MB sedan. It won't hold it's value, or gain in value.

Rare does not equal collector.

These are not cars to buy and store, driving only sparingly. These are performance cars that are going to lose value, driven or not. So drive 'em.

Now, they hold their value better than a standard E-Class car, but if you expect to pay for your kid's university by selling your E500, you better be sending them to Sally Struther's correspondence school.

If I really wanted one, I'd look for a car with 70-100K-miles, and try to bargain on the mileage. Exceptional cars will be high priced, but nowhere near their new price. I just don't see any Canadian E500 selling for over $110,000 no matter how rare they become or how low mileage the example.

A friend of mine has a clean Ferrari 512BB. It's never been worth less than what he paid for it, and today would sell for quite a bit more than he paid. That's the kind of car you keep. An E500 is for driving, and driving fast whenever possible.

I also doubt that any E500 will ever fetch an outrageous price. A super clean 6.3 can be had for $20K US. Most are less.

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John Shellenberg
1998 C230 "Black Betty" 240K

http://img31.exs.cx/img31/4050/tophat6.gif

John,

I think we are talking apples and oranges here. Apples being "investment" car, oranges being "collector" car.

In no way am I suggesting that a 500E be purchased as an investment, for paying tuition (or whatever)

However, I do believe, in time, the 500E will stand out as a collector car and as I stated in my previous post "as time marches on, the few remaining low mileage and original 500Es will be highly coveted and likely fetch mind-boggling prices".

Is $20K for a 6.3 more than the original sticker? You bet. That car is also over thirty years old. Is the 6.3 a collector car? Absolutely. Would I buy one today as an "investment"...nope.

Could a "perfect" 500E fetch $150,000 twenty years from now? I think yes. But, there are better ways to invest my money....my goal is to double every 7 years, not every 20!

I will add that in terms of an investment, the 500E has several things against it that, IMO, would hold it back in the future collector market:

1. It is not a convertible. (What do they say at Barrett-Jackson? - "when the top goes down, the price goes up")

2. Has no MB-factory racing history (unlike the 190E2.3-16, 500SLC, or even the Gullwings)

3. Although US production numbers were low, worldwide production was much higher (again compared to 1400 Gullwings, etc.)

4. Not the "flagship" of MB. The 600SEL/S600 of 1992-1995 was considered the "flagship" of the MB line.


p.s. I am really enjoying our exchange here....just wanted to share my thoughts.