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  #1  
Old 06-27-2002, 11:29 PM
SV
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Did MB just completely forget about the performance of the non AMG models?

I was looking at the article of the new CLK in Motor Trend. The CLK320 now weighs some 300 lbs. more than it used to, but still has the same engine as the W208. Does this bother anyone else? If you look at all the new cars that are coming out in the 29-40K range and compare it to the CLK, you'll be dissapointed in terms of performance. I know the CLK isn't all about speed and power, but still. Look at the BMW 330ci or the new infinity G35. And well, now that I think about it, MB has not improved the performance of their cars for a while now.

Other car makers (especially japanese ones) have really crept up and are making some cars with serious power. The Acura CL Type-S has 260, the G35 has 260, the 330ci has a lot less but makes up for it by offering a manual transmission and a good power/weight ratio. Even though MB is improving on the design and technology of the cars, they haven't improved the performance of the non AMG models for a loooooong time. The cars are actually getting slower (just look at the W203 C240 and the W202 C230K, and the new CLK320 and E320). I know MB isn't supposed to be a sports car and this and that, so lets not talk about that. I'm saying performance in their cars has been an important part of MB's history. It just seems like MB ijust wants to put out new cars for the yuppies who buy it just to say they have a Mercedes-Benz. Where's the performance? Who the hell cares about distronic cruise control? Where are the all new engines? If only they would think how they did in the 80's with the W124 when no car came close to the 300E. That's the kind of mentality they should have.

If I were spending 40K on a new car I most likely wouldn't get a MB anymore. Kinda scary because I have always prefered MB over other cars. I hope i'm not the only one with this opinion.

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  #2  
Old 06-28-2002, 10:19 AM
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its true though, mercedes probably doesn't care much about the performance of their non amg cars. I mean, lets face it, even the AMG cars are outclassed by their M competition. Thats alright though, because you can only floss in a benz. However, if you do look at mercedes' history, you will find that their cars have never been about performance. A Mercedes will have a high top speed, but it will definetaly take its time getting there, and turning? Oh no, mercedes don't do turning. The 80s marked a turn around for mercedes, where they switched from their large body slow turning cars to more athletic chassis, but still, the cars weren't all that fast, I mean, lets talk gran nationals if you want fast 80s cars. I think that recently Mercedes performance has improved over its historic level, but Mercedes is definetaly not dedicated to this pursuit, the result are vehicles that are never quite as fast or never turn as well as a BMW, yet still come with the harsh ride and are sporting cheaper and cheaper interiors (not that I don't like big LCD monitors, but nothing exudes luxury and refinment like a big chunk of wood on your dash) and I agree, if this continues, I don't think id buy a new mercedes... (Well ok, maybe I would, but all of you could call me a sellout and a communist subvert)
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  #3  
Old 06-28-2002, 07:42 PM
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if I was spending 40k I wouldn't buy a new benz, not because of any reasons in particular, its just that if I was spending 40k, I'd pickup a nice 500e/e500 instead.

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  #4  
Old 06-28-2002, 08:59 PM
SV
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Quote:
Originally posted by Badinfo
its true though, mercedes probably doesn't care much about the performance of their non amg cars. I mean, lets face it, even the AMG cars are outclassed by their M competition. Thats alright though, because you can only floss in a benz. However, if you do look at mercedes' history, you will find that their cars have never been about performance. A Mercedes will have a high top speed, but it will definetaly take its time getting there, and turning? Oh no, mercedes don't do turning. The 80s marked a turn around for mercedes, where they switched from their large body slow turning cars to more athletic chassis, but still, the cars weren't all that fast, I mean, lets talk gran nationals if you want fast 80s cars. I think that recently Mercedes performance has improved over its historic level, but Mercedes is definetaly not dedicated to this pursuit, the result are vehicles that are never quite as fast or never turn as well as a BMW, yet still come with the harsh ride and are sporting cheaper and cheaper interiors (not that I don't like big LCD monitors, but nothing exudes luxury and refinment like a big chunk of wood on your dash) and I agree, if this continues, I don't think id buy a new mercedes... (Well ok, maybe I would, but all of you could call me a sellout and a communist subvert)
Actually if you look the history of Mercedes-Benz, performance has been one of the things most important to them. They have made some fast cars in the past. Look at the 300SEL 6.3 or 450SEL6.9. The 300SL Gullwing was the fastest car in the world when it came out. All their other cars have not been as big performers as these, but they always beat the competition. It's just that with MB, they're not doing anything to the C/CLK class where some japanese cars have risen up in the $30K and made some quick cars.
I actually think that the AMG vs. M thing isn't that big of a deal. The E55 is .1 seconds slower than a M5. So what. The M5 is a better handling car, but thats because AMG didn't want to go all out on handling and throw out the luxury. They're both great, but it's obvious that AMG is more comfort oriented and M is more sport oriented. So I don't think there is a problem there. Where I do see a problem is a $40K C320 or $43K CLK320 can't match up against a 260 HP infinity G35 or BMW 330Ci or Acura CL Type-S.
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  #5  
Old 06-28-2002, 09:38 PM
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ahh but you see, Mercedes did make a few fast cars in the past, but so did Ford... sorry if I mislead you guys with my wanderings, but I was just trying to impart (in way too many word I might add) that Mercedes has been trying to get its performance up, but they always seem to fall short. The new c-classes are much sportier than the old 190s in standard guise, but the fact is, mercedes is about 3 hops and a skip behind the rest of the automotive world with their vehicles. I think mercedes can do much better, and there has to be some stodgy manegement holding things back. (Kinda like why all pontiacs are starting to look like triceretops.... somebody way up is just an idiot)
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Old 06-28-2002, 10:10 PM
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Originally posted by Badinfo
but the fact is, mercedes is about 3 hops and a skip behind the rest of the automotive world with their vehicles. I think mercedes can do much better, and there has to be some stodgy manegement holding things back.
Every company has made fast cars, only some of them have really been cars worth of writing in history books because they were breakthrough cars.
Also, MB has not really been behind with their cars until recently. Before that, they were doing pretty well. They would match what the competitors were offering or at least try to without going all out.

I do agree with you on the management thing. We need some gearheads to be up there in the management. It's like Mercedes has always been afraid to introduce a really sporty car, fearing it will upset some people. Take the W203 C-coupe. I'ts just a C-class coupe, but it could have been so much more. They could have made it way sportier then it is, but they didn't.
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  #7  
Old 06-28-2002, 11:54 PM
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yes indeed, I was really dissapointed with the c coupe. I think it resembles the old Tiburon in both looks and functionality... major downer. One thing that I liked about mercedes was their interior design. If you look back, it used to stay way ahead of the curve. Take the 300e's interior for instance, the car was selling back in 1986 with the same interior as my 92, and it still looks so modern. Compare that to the interior of an 86 Honda, Buick, Cadillac, or even BMW and Audi, and you will see that the other brand's interior looks like it came outta trash compactor. Unfortunetaly, Mercedes interiors these days just blends in with the competition... it doesn't look any nicer, its not more luxurious, its just there. This is really too bad considering the huge premium Mercedes demands of its new customers and the fact that jrice is quieter, more refined, and, contrary to everything that goes on in this forum, more reliable. (To lessen the flames that will invaribly come, I think Lexus makes some of the blandest and ugliest cars money can buy...)
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  #8  
Old 07-01-2002, 02:38 AM
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The issue is power vs longevity.
If Mercedes sold their cars with the engines running at 100% potential BHP output then non of you folkswould have been driving all those old yet potent 500E/E500 's. Engines running at max output simply will not last. Merc has the technology to create really powerfull worthy machines such as the SL55, but they have a reputation to live up to and that is longevity which is a reflection of quality. Simply put increase in HP will increase tear and wear and will stress most if not all drivetrain components. Formula1 car engines are 1 race engines. After a race they are dumped.
How much longevity are you folks willing to sacrifice for an increase in HP. How many of the cars you mentioned will be on the roads 6 years from now. at least here in europe W123 & W124 cars are all over the place not to mention the R107. How many BMW's of the same era do you see on the road today. were are all those 6 series BM's?
Mercedes lags behind in BHP and in accelaration. But not in torque. This shows when overtaking at speed with a loaded car.
Mercedes is not about drag racing from traffic light to traffic light.
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  #9  
Old 07-02-2002, 05:53 PM
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218 bhp from 3.2 liters is still a totally respectable output in a SOHC V-6. Hell, a C320 or an E320 will stomp on a W126 560SEL from 0-60. I think the C320 has decent performance for its engine size...0-60 is what, 6.9 seconds? That's right with a BMW 330i Steptronic. Ditto for the E320 vs. BMW 530i...low 7's 0-60 mph in both of them.

I don't know what Badinfo says about "turning"....maybe this is some reference to skidpad grip as per Car and Driver, albeit VERY vaguely worded. What I do know is that I can throw my full-size W126 luxury sedan at a corner and the front A-arms and multi-link rear help it have a pretty high level of ultimate grip, combined with Bridgestone Potenzas. The car is a little big for switchbacked canyon roads, but will pull through high speed sweepers very well at illegal rates of speed. Of course, it is accompanied by body roll, but no matter how hard I've pushed the car, I've barely ever elicited a squeal from any of the tires in a corner. So Benzes have skidpad grip a few hundredths of a G lower than BMWs. Does that mean anything to anyone who actually drives these cars in the real world? Probably not too much. Indeed, in a comparison test of BMW M5, Mercedes E55, and Jaguar XJR, the Benz and Bimmer had IDENTICAL skidpad grip of 0.9 g.

The problem with the new CLK is that it's getting heavier. Where the hell is all the weight coming from, and is it necessary?

-Sam
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  #10  
Old 07-02-2002, 06:28 PM
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what I meant by turning is in handling and feel. Any comparison you look at, the beamers are faster through the the slalom. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, since a mercedes' ride is generally more complaint (I make exceptions for c36 and c43s here). I was trying to say that perhaps Mercedes should stop trying to out BMW a BMW....
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  #11  
Old 07-08-2002, 02:46 PM
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The extra weight in the W209 comes from the pillar less design. Not to mention that it is about 40 percent stiffer than the 208.
It was about time they got rid of the B-pillar.

Vin
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  #12  
Old 07-25-2002, 04:28 PM
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this is the reason why i get furious about mercedes not much power (it has enouggh power but it should be more i think)but i still like the car and im not going to buy another car than a mercedes, mercedes is the best car in the world for me......
engine is good and everything is good i think

last month i went too the service of mercedes for a part of the alarm, someone was furious about his VITO, he was screaming to another man cause there was something wrong with his new vito it was just a few months old, and after that we went to the man with my dad, my dad asked what wrong was so he told us about it and after that the man said "THE BEST MERCEDES IS THE W124 serie, never had someone problems with it or there were never complaints about " he really said it im not telling some bull**** here, but for me all the mercedesses are good especially the W126 serie...............
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