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  #1  
Old 08-30-2002, 09:32 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 5
Post gonna Turbocharge a 2.5L 16V 190E.

Hi guys;

this is my first post here, I don't have a MB, I have a SEAT Cordoba SX that I have turbocharged and done a lot to it, it looks like a cordoba just from the out side, open the bonnet and it has nothing to do with the stock car .
Now I have a friend who has a 190E 2.5L 16V and he is interested in having more power out of that car, so I have convinced him to Turbocharge the car, we will do it all custom made as we did to my car, what I am interested in most is to know if there are any tricks or hints I should take into consideration when performing such a project, we are going to keep the mechanical injection system and stock ignition, on my car I have a piggyback system that controls Fueling, Timing and Extra injection, but my car has a Motronic injection system, while the benz doesn't so we will use the piggyback "SMT5-I from www.perfectpower.com" to control 4 extra injectors that will be allocated on each of the four intake runners for equal fuel distribution "the SMT5-I will have an external MAP sensor to trigger the injection process" if we provided enough fuel under boost, we won't need to retard the timing would we "keeping in mind that we use 98RON unleaded fuel al the time" .
the intercooler might come from a Volvo FMIC or a BMW 745i or might go custom made or W>A IC (did not consider that yet) but we will try our best to have a good enough intercooling process,
so assume u add another fuel pump, 4 extra injectors 218cc/min each, IC, a Garrett T3 from a Lancia Integral, or a KKK K26 turbo, what is the stock CR on these cars "european model" ? what do u think is the boost level that we can run with such a setup ? how to lower CR on these cars? should I use a double headgasket? or is there a lower CR pistons from another benz that we can use "on my Cordoba I am using an 8v psitons under a 16v head that took CR from 10.8:1 to 7.8:1"

any ideas or inputs would be greatly appreciated.
BTW I just want to say that I have never found a group so cool and act like gentlemen as u guys and the strangest part is that some of u are really highly qualified mechanics who help others without delay at all.
Congradulations for ur behaviour and for a wonderfull helpfull forum.
best regards
Nabil

Last edited by nabilsx; 08-30-2002 at 09:43 AM.
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  #2  
Old 09-04-2002, 09:56 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 553
Let me see what I can help you with. I don't know the stock compression ratio...therefor I can't help you with the boost level. If I were you, i would throw some new pistons in there. Drop me an email and I will get you some pistons. no_end87@hotmail.com

The other option with the pistons is to take them to calculate how much metal you would have to take off to change the compression ratio and make sure that you have enough to do it.

How much power are you looking for?
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  #3  
Old 09-05-2002, 06:11 AM
They call me Darth Speed
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 327
2.5L - 16v

you can keep the High compression. run about 5 psi boost with a To4E and get a boost retard ignition system. with the right set up you should get at least 300 HP without going into the engine.
more HP with some good tuning.

I built a customers VW Jetta turbo with the 16V 2.0L engine with 10.8 to 1 compression. I installed a Crane HI-6 with boost retard.
the timing under boost was 25 degrees. the car made 320 HP on the dyno with 5 psi of boost! (TO4E hybrid)

A lot of the Honda turbos are running over 10 to 1 compression and making over 400 HP. so y not a benz motor?
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  #4  
Old 09-05-2002, 12:57 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 245
The compression ratio is 10.5:1. So, like the others said, you can run a low boost setup and leave the engine stock. But to get huge power gains, you'll have to get custom made low compression pistons, like me . Mosselmann makes a turbo kit for the 16V and at 5.5PSI of boost it makes 260HP. That's for the high compression Euro engine. The fuel system is stock except that they have a little piggy back computer that enriches the mixture a bit by connecting to the EHA (a little black box on the right rear of the fuel distributor). But, you can manually adjust the EHA, so you might be able to enrich the mixture enough without adding anything. There's and adjustment screw on the inside of the EHA. The Mosselmann kit comes with a very small intercooler. So, if you had decent cooling, you could probably run 7 or 8 PSI and make a lot more power. The only problem is that the ignition system has no knock sensing, so you've got to be extremely careful about detonation. Retarding the ignition is a piece of cake. On the euro model, there's a knob on the driver's side fender that allows you to adjust the timing value based on the fuel you're running. It lets you retard it quite a bit. I think it's up to 12 degrees, but I'm not sure. It could be more.
Well, I hope this gets you started! Good luck and keep us posted!

Later,
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  #5  
Old 09-05-2002, 05:13 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 827
Stock Compression Ratio

for the 2.3-16 Euro spec is 10.5:1
for the 2.3-16 NA spec is 9.7:1
for the 2.5-16 is also 9.7:1
for the 2.5-16 EvoI is 10.5:1
for the 2.5-16 EvoII is 10.5:1

Hope this helps
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  #6  
Old 09-06-2002, 10:37 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 5
thanx for the replies guys

Speedtek: believe me I intend no offense at all, but 320whp out of a 2.0L 16V at just 5psi is way too high in my opinion, I have the 1.8L 16V in my SEAT CORDOBA and it was a high CR turbo car
I ran 10psi all day at 10.5:1 CR, I even ran 1bar once but flooded the engine with fuel and it ping at the 5th gear after 5000RPM.
I raced Prosche 911 Carrera S, E39 M5, 4.6L Mustang, 2.0L 16V Peugeot 206, E36 BMW 325is, MB 320 CLK Kompressor, MB C200 Kompressor and won all the races "I am not talking about racing over 210km/hr coz I hit rev limiter at 5th gear at 6300RPM and my speed woul dbe 211km/hr :-).
but I never felt that my car had more than 250hp and that is at the crank, add to that , all dyno runs I have seen at the hardcorevw forum or at the vwvortex never show such numbers at such a low boost level, I know that 2.0 16v can produce alot of power but not with such a low boost, maybe u wanted to say 220whp?? I hope don't sound like an A$$ but felt like knowing ur reply.

now forgetting about vw and back to MB, u say that I can use extra injectors and lower CR, get an efficient turbo and IC, and then no pbm running boost as long as I keep in mind that no knock sensor is available. and I better use an ignition box with timing control, what do u think about the accell +300?? u or the new Mallory HyFire IVc electronic ignition control ... , what about MSD stuff? thank u all of u for ur replies , especially MADDOG and SPEEDTEK for their contribution with the F.I. of the BENZ.
regards to all.
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  #7  
Old 09-06-2002, 01:34 PM
They call me Darth Speed
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 327
name of the game

The name of the game is TURBO Efficiency. and like I mentioned the ignition system is also the key. On the dyno we ran a mixture of pump/25% race gas. at the wheels HP was 270 HP @ 4900 rpm.

We have a customers Honda Prelude 2.4L 16V with 11 to 1 compression running 350 HP at the wheels on pump gas currently. The car has a To4E/t3 hybrid turbo and a massive intercooler. 8 psi of boost @ 22 degrees advance.

Is your Cordoba using the stock turbo?
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  #8  
Old 09-07-2002, 12:54 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 5
turbo on my cordoba

my Cordoba is the 1999 model that started life as a 1.6L 8V 100hp engine, I added an IHI RHB5 turbo to that engine, bigger injectors and a cartech 20005 FMU, ignition is stock and still is.
then I stroked that engine to 1.8L using the 86.4mm crank and 16v pistons and head and a Garrett TB0357 turbo "Small turbo but enough for my application" and now I am in the process of finishing the last project on the car, I got 8v pistons replacing 16v ones, that should lower CR to about 8:1 or 7.8:1, bigger injectors, an SMT5-I piggyback to control ignition timing, fueling and if needed extra injectors. u can check it at www.idaautomotive.com for the united states distributor. I started the car yesterday and found that the fuel rail is leaking and needs to be welded so when done I hope I would be able to say that the final project on my Cordi is done. I have a customer with a 2.5L 16V 190E EVOII who wants to turbocharge it, so I am interested to know the limits of that engine before I make the man pay his money, I like to know that if I did this ir that its not gonna break and I won't look like a dumbo :p , last week we did a E21 with a 745i turbo engine swap, running 1.2bar boost and dual 745 welded ICs, to get an idea about the power of that car, it raced against a Suzuki GSX-R 1100 1/4mile distance and from a standstill start the gsx-r won by 2 car length, "there is no timing" and from a rolling stat going 25m/h and then hitting it the 345iT won by about 3 cars length.
Thank so much for everything "time help etc..." and hope no benzer gets offended by talking about another car.
regards
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  #9  
Old 09-07-2002, 06:28 PM
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Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Suwanee, GA, USA
Posts: 4,712
Well, we are going to find out.

My 16v is a stock bottom end with a stage 5 ported head. I am using a T3-4 hybrid with a 44compressor and a 63 exhaust.
Also, I am using a HUUUUUGE intercooler. I have the TEC3 stand-alone fuel and ignition control.
I plan on running 1 bar of boost.
Another month or so and it will be finished.
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  #10  
Old 09-08-2002, 01:50 AM
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Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Bulgaria, Sofia
Posts: 584
Is it nessecary to use fuel enrichment at 5psi ? Can't the CIS compensate ? I'm asking this question because I read the Jim Villars thread on the supercharger and I was under the impression that he didn't use any fuel enrichment. Jim any comments ? If I have to use fuel enrichment I plan to use an adjustable boots pressure switch which will turn on the cold start injector at a given boost level (when the car starts to lean out). Will this work ? I'm using a Garret T3 turbo with intercooler and plan to run 5-6 psi of boost. Also do I have to set the retard to 12 degrees ? Since this is my first turbo project I don't want to make a mistake (run the engine lean) and blow the engine.

Later
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  #11  
Old 09-09-2002, 12:22 AM
They call me Darth Speed
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 327
Boost retard

you need to find a ignition system that supports boost retard.
for 5 psi of boost I would run about 28 degrees on a hi-compression turbo car, that is under boost at about 3000 rpm.

I have done a lot of dyno testing on many different engines and it is all basically the same. Try to keep the oil temp at 180F degrees
and the water temp below 195F. That is where you see the most HP.

The fuel enrichment also depends on the timing. the more advance you run the richer the mixture has to be. I have run many CIS cars up to 6 psi with no enrichment. an EGT gauge would be helpful to determine this. Mount it before turbo.
Try VDO or ISSPRO gauges. If you use a different brand have it calibrated before installing! Try to tune the car at 1350 degrees max. 1200 to 1300 would be ideal. These figures are based on calibrated gauges! not off the shelf stuff. I had a calibrated VDO and an HKS electronic in my race car. the HKS said my car was running 1800 degrees through the traps.......the VDO said 1400
degrees. I think if my car was 1800 degrees something would bad happen. like lose a exhaust turbine wheel....? (I lost one a wheel before at 1500 degrees!, bad race gas)

EGT is not something to mess with on a turbo car.

Last edited by Speedtek; 09-09-2002 at 12:30 AM.
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