Oddly, I'm not on any aviation forums...

This one looks okay, if you click the 'View Today's Active Threads' link on the upper right you get one list of all the active threads from all the subforums.

And the AOPA site has an enormous amount of stuff to read

My 2 cents on spin training.
Went through normal stall training for the Private, Commercial and spin training for the CFI. Then full spin training in Air Force Pilot Training. We spin the T37 completely and recovery is not let go of the controls as many a Cessna are designed for. You MUST follow the exact proceedure or you will spin into the ground. Or eject, your option. Have actually done deep stalls in the MD80 simulator. And aileron rolls (with the motion off so it does not mess up the simulator)
My son will go thru the taildragger check out, which requires 10 hrs of Dual. It will be done at a local airport here that has a Decathalon. So the 10 hours will be spent on aerobatics.
I have a philosophy, that many a pilot has. The more time you spend upside down in an aircraft the more comforable you are right side up. We spent a lot of time in formation or aerobatics in Pilot training. So now upset recovery is not a big deal. We continue to do it in the simulators here at American Airlines. The only difference between the T37/T38 and MD80 recovery is the amount of G's you can pull.

The FAA's philosophy tend to depend on the final turn stall incident rate that is accuring over the last 5 year period. If its increasing then they focus on it. this is how the FAA seems to approach everything, statistical trends.

kpb
There is nothing wrong with not staying current with proceedures on various airspaces. But you must know and be able to identify the airspaces. IF you stay out of those airspaces. Stay current with the flying you do. If you change your flying environment then get additional training so you will be current. If you learned to fly at a small airport in South Carolina and always stayed in that general area would it be necessary to be fully trained in high alltitude hot operations (density altitude) in Denver?? Be familiar with the various operations around and get the training when necessary.
Now having said that. The MORE you know the better pilot you will be. If your a Private pilot without and Instrument rating and your trying to fly Xcountry when it 1000'/3mi you going to get into trouble. But if you limit yourself to good weather days and know WHEN to call it quits if the weather is going bad then you'll be OK.

Know your limitations.

Dave

__________________
1970 220D, owned 1980-1990
1980 240D, owned 1990-1992
1982 300TD, owned 1992-1993
1986 300SDL, owned 1993-2004
1999 E300, owned 1999-2003
1982 300TD, 213,880mi, owned since Nov 18, 1991- Aug 4, 2010 SOLD
1988 560SL, 100,000mi, owned since 1995
1965 Mustang Fastback Mileage Unknown(My sons)
1983 240D, 176,000mi (My daughers) owned since 2004
2007 Honda Accord EX-L I4 auto, the new daily driver
1985 300D 264,000mi Son's new daily driver.(sold)
2008 Hyundai Tiberon. Daughters new car

Good post, Dave. I have never even come close on the weather. Call me fair weather willy, I guess. Last time I flew two weeks ago it was really clear on the ground but surprisingly hazy when looking down from 1500' AGL. Since the sun was shining brilliantly I kept catching glimpses (reflections) off of ponds, roofs, farm machinery, etc., in the distance through the haze which had me lookin' constantly for non-existent traffic -- so, I knocked off the sight-seeing and stayed in the pattern for a bit. Not really a weather story but I am one cautious pilot Old, not bold.

hey ww, checked out your tip re: aviation forum. Looks interesting. I do visit the AOPA regularly and I love the "Never Again" stories (or is it "I learned about flying from that"?) Have come close to sending 'em something (ie., full flaps take-off in 172 on my first solo , or, taking off as a solo student with 7-8kts of wind on the ground only to stay in the pattern and find on final it has kicked up to 18kts, gusts to 22kts at 70-80 degrees -- had to be talked down by the FBO!!)

Let me get on a soap box for a second here.

One pet peeve that I have is the lousy job that is done training pilots in weather. Now let me justify my statement. I am a Meteorologist and spent 4 years forecasting in the Air Force. And conducting the annual training to the C130 Pilots at Pope AFB, when I was there 1977-1980.
I have been trained by the FAA system while getting my civilian ratings. ATP SEL/MEL DC-9 type rating, CFII, 17,500 hours. And attend USAF Pilot Training. Pilot Training was funny, I actually had to sit in on the "weather class" at UPT even though I was 4 AFSC (Air Force systems command, I.E. your job level) numbers above the instructor. I was certified to teach HIM, but had to fill the square and "complete" the class.
I have been with American Airlines for 20 years and will say that all the programs that I have been thru, are terrible.

The FAA, USAF and Airlines do a lousy job teaching weather. The one thing you spend ALL your time flying in, the atmosphere, and the training is poor.

Weather is difficult to teach, I will admit. Everything in weather is a variable so that makes it hard for students to get a grasp on it. I would hope that they would try to do a better job, but they don't. How many accidents are weather related, the majority.

OK I'll get off my soap box.

kpb
" taking off as a solo student with 7-8kts of wind on the ground only to stay in the pattern and find on final it has kicked up to 18kts, gusts to 22kts at 70-80 degrees "

So I guess the weather briefing about the front coming thru was not very good. Typical FROPA, remember, "frontal passage". Wind direction change and/or speed change. Glad you got down OK

Dave

__________________
1970 220D, owned 1980-1990
1980 240D, owned 1990-1992
1982 300TD, owned 1992-1993
1986 300SDL, owned 1993-2004
1999 E300, owned 1999-2003
1982 300TD, 213,880mi, owned since Nov 18, 1991- Aug 4, 2010 SOLD
1988 560SL, 100,000mi, owned since 1995
1965 Mustang Fastback Mileage Unknown(My sons)
1983 240D, 176,000mi (My daughers) owned since 2004
2007 Honda Accord EX-L I4 auto, the new daily driver
1985 300D 264,000mi Son's new daily driver.(sold)
2008 Hyundai Tiberon. Daughters new car

I'm not anywhere near the catagory some of ya'll are Dave and webwench but I do have my stories. I guess my most impressive lesson concerning weather is when I attempted to fly into a small, single lane, no tower airport in rural Georgia underneath a thunderstorm. It did not take but one time for that plane to feel like a toothpick that I did a 180 out of there and landed at another little airport nearby.

Reason I stopped flying is that I really don't have any place I feel like I need to go to in a hurry other than the house but on the same hand I think it would be neat to own a TriPacer or something similar to mess around with. My favorite single engine airplane has always been a V35B Bonanza.

__________________
Jim

If he is already qualified to fly a taildragger the aerobatics would be the most fun way to spend the 10 hours. I have no idea of your son's experience. If I were starting with taildraggers today I would spend the 10 hours in a twitchy little airplane like a luscombe or a cessna 140, on the runway, with the tailwheel off of the ground.

Once the taildragger is off of the ground it just flying, nothing new to be gained. It is on the ground that the new skills must be mastered.

A couple of hours in a crosswind doing wheel landings should be required.

Finish off with something that has some torque like a couple hours in a cessna 180 and then you are checked-out in a taildragger.

Deadstick landing like the guy did me is not required but I learned a lot from instructors that challenged me. "No, that's not a runway, we aren't going to land there." Sometimes you have no choice, it is better to learn while you do have a choice.

My experience with flying is more than a bit unusual. For instance my first solo was in a single place plane and I had not logged any dual time prior to the solo. You can't get dual time in a single place plane. But I had grown-up in airplanes and actually knew the controls in a small plane and had a fair amount of stick time before I learned to ride a bicycle. I was too small to see out of the cockpit so I learned the instruments also. Couldn't reach the rudder pedals and was a total retard with the rudders (but didn't know it) until I flew a taildragger much later, after I was an adult.

Actually today 10 hours is required for insurance purposes. The actual check out IAW FAR's is an endorsment by and qualified instructor. The local school with the Decathalon requiers the 10 hours for insurances and common sense. The airprot its at has a runway that is 40" wide. So i'm sure they want a little precision in the landings. Also the aerobatic capablities of the aircraft caused the school to give a check out. Not many schools in the DFW area rent taildraggers. The insureance is high for them. I know of only one other for rent.
Drew is a Commercial/ Instrument, CFI with 350 hours. CFII should be by Christmas and the Multi and CFIIME should be by the end of next semester of school. Actually I'm more interested in the aerobatics for him then the Taildragger endorsment. If will be nice and he will be able to do BFR's in an individuals taildragger once he is checked out.
He does very well in school and flying. But as a parent I of course worry. I wish I could give him 1/10th of my experience. I know what he must go thru to gain experience. And as a Father I hope he does not have any accidents.

Actually the concern webwench and I have is the unneccesary risk that was taken. The technique can be demonstrated with the engine at idle. I'm sure the FAA would not look favorable on that method. IF the engine does not restart, you just put yourself between a rock and a hard place. And I can almost gaurantee the FAA would suspend the license of the instructor and student.
Now shutting down and engine inflight is acceptable for training ONLY in a multi engine aircraft, or powered glider. We used to do this all the time in the military. But we had 3 other engines running AND the C141 was like a glider. 1 engine approaches were practiced regulary in the simulator.

I do hope you mean Dual in THAT particular aircraft. Soloing, for the first time without any dual is 1. Illegal and 2 rather foolish, unless you soloed prior to say 1926. The year the CAA was formed.

But I'm sure there is more your not telling us.

Dave

__________________
1970 220D, owned 1980-1990
1980 240D, owned 1990-1992
1982 300TD, owned 1992-1993
1986 300SDL, owned 1993-2004
1999 E300, owned 1999-2003
1982 300TD, 213,880mi, owned since Nov 18, 1991- Aug 4, 2010 SOLD
1988 560SL, 100,000mi, owned since 1995
1965 Mustang Fastback Mileage Unknown(My sons)
1983 240D, 176,000mi (My daughers) owned since 2004
2007 Honda Accord EX-L I4 auto, the new daily driver
1985 300D 264,000mi Son's new daily driver.(sold)
2008 Hyundai Tiberon. Daughters new car

It's possible it was a homebuilt operated under an experimental type certificate? There are (or at least used to be) no training requirements at all for something with one seat and under a certain weight. Or he had some amount of dual time logged in comparable aircraft beforehand as you suggest. The regs only require that dual needs to be received 'in the make and model of aircraft or similar make and model of aircraft to be flown', which could allow it.

I know in some areas the regs are taken very much as 'suggestions' rather than regulation, a prime example being Alaska. I rented while up there on a vacation (should really post some of the aerial photos I have from that trip ) and was told by the instructor that something like half the pilots flying up there didn't even have a private license, and they routinely get guys applying for ratings who have hundreds of thousands of hours in the air sans license!

And dmorrison is right about the source of my 'discontent' with regards to shutting off the engine on a single-engine airplane. Practicing emergency procedures is required for a private license (and indeed prior to solo), but it is always done with engine at idle in a single-engine. I can't see a plus side to shutting down the engine in this case, unless you were surrounded by miles of hard-pan desert to land on

I agree that you could recieve all the required training in another aircraft and the FAA could agree to your soloing in another aircraft. Military used to do this a lot in the old fighters.
But to comply with 61.87 you have to

"(c) Pre-solo flight training. Prior to conducting a solo flight, a
student pilot must have:
(1) Received and logged flight training for the maneuvers and
procedures of this section that are appropriate to the make and model of
aircraft to be flown; and
(2) Demonstrated satisfactory proficiency and safety, as judged by
an authorized instructor, on the maneuvers and procedures required by
this section in the make and model of aircraft or similar make and model
of aircraft to be flown."

How will the student demonstrate proficiency on a solo flight. The proficiency must be demonstrated PRIOR to signing the solo certificate.

Now it does not say that the CFI has to be sitting next to the student. So I guest it could be done at an uncontrolled airport with the CFI talking to him on the radio. But you sure are hanging your license out there for the FAA to take and the liability is tremendous.

Usually first flights in experimantal aircraft are by licensed pilots. Not students. My friend is building a RV8 and the amount of time put into that, I wouldn't want to loose that on an inexperienced student pilot. but if its his aircraft and he can find CFI to sign him off, It may be legal, I'm still not convinced.

Alaska a whole different world. Beautiful place to fly, easy place to get killed if your not careful, or knowledgable.

Dave

__________________
1970 220D, owned 1980-1990
1980 240D, owned 1990-1992
1982 300TD, owned 1992-1993
1986 300SDL, owned 1993-2004
1999 E300, owned 1999-2003
1982 300TD, 213,880mi, owned since Nov 18, 1991- Aug 4, 2010 SOLD
1988 560SL, 100,000mi, owned since 1995
1965 Mustang Fastback Mileage Unknown(My sons)
1983 240D, 176,000mi (My daughers) owned since 2004
2007 Honda Accord EX-L I4 auto, the new daily driver
1985 300D 264,000mi Son's new daily driver.(sold)
2008 Hyundai Tiberon. Daughters new car

The rub is that the reg allows proficiency to be demonstrated in an aircraft 'or similar make and model of aircraft to be flown". And the 'maneuvers and procedures... appropriate to the make and model of aircraft to be flown' could be accomplished in any light fixed-wing aircraft. Not an approach I'd take, personally, especially with an initial solo; I want to see the student fly that particular make and model aircraft by observing from the seat right next to him before I sign him off One of many cases where the regs spell out only a minimum standard which most of us strive to exceed...

There are some provisions for pilot examiners to observe some maneuvers from the ground, but I have yet to meet one who would sign off for a rating based on ground observation.

If I'm not mistaken, an RV8 is too heavy to apply to what I'm referring to. There are a lot of lightweight kitplanes flown by owners who have had little more than a couple of lessons -- I've met a couple of them myself I gave instruction to a guy who had been flying his own kitplane for a few years, unlicensed, unendorsed for solo, just a guy who figured if he built it, he could fly it, and indeed he could, and did He thought he was exempt from the pilot certification requirements due to his aircraft being an ultralight, but as it turns out, although it was light enough, it had two seats, which changed how the FAA looked at it. We spent some hours in his aircraft, got him signed off for his solo flights and solo cross-countries to build up his 'legal time', and because we couldn't find an examiner who would go up in his airplane with him, we transitioned him into a Cessna 150 just for the purpose of taking the checkride. He hated that 150, said it was too big!

He had to be 4' 9" and weighted 97 Lbs. "TOO BIG." I don't think I could fit in a 150 anymore. Went up with my freind in his 1963 C172 and we had a little skin overlap at the shoulders.
Guess I've gotten used to big equipment

Now ultralights are a completely differnt game, and rules.

Dave

__________________
1970 220D, owned 1980-1990
1980 240D, owned 1990-1992
1982 300TD, owned 1992-1993
1986 300SDL, owned 1993-2004
1999 E300, owned 1999-2003
1982 300TD, 213,880mi, owned since Nov 18, 1991- Aug 4, 2010 SOLD
1988 560SL, 100,000mi, owned since 1995
1965 Mustang Fastback Mileage Unknown(My sons)
1983 240D, 176,000mi (My daughers) owned since 2004
2007 Honda Accord EX-L I4 auto, the new daily driver
1985 300D 264,000mi Son's new daily driver.(sold)
2008 Hyundai Tiberon. Daughters new car

Bingo, yes the first solo was in an ultralight. And no it was not the smartest thing anyone ever did. But as noted the regs are full of grey areas and for some reason my early days in aviation were with the masters of the grey, men who had been suspended by the FAA more times than most people ever flew. And men who walked away from more cracked-up planes than most people ever flew-in. There are pirate elements in all of the most highly-regulated pursuits.

Remember that someone had to fly the first plane ever without knowing that it would even fly, and if it would fly, not knowing that it would be controllable. I knew the plane would fly, I had seen it fly and I knew it was controllable.

I had flown plenty from the right seat and before I was seven I could and had flown a plane all except for landing the plane. I just couldn't see out well enough to attempt a landing, and couldn't reach the rudders.

Landing was the big question with the solo. I reasoned that making the transition from flying slow down the runway to taxiing fast down the runway was all that there was to it. I spent a good amount of time in the plane taxiing fast to the point that I could feel the plane wanting to fly. This took place in three or so sessions over a period of days. When I flew I practiced flying slow down the runway until I was comfortable with that. Then I made the transition to taxiing fast down the runway. While I was up I did fly around to my heart's content before coming back to the runway.

Later when I got my private pilot's license I repeated the same comfort exercises of taxiing fast up the runway and flying slow up the runway.

The engine-out exercise was extreme and I got quite an adrenalin rush out of it. But you know that people fly gliders all of the time. The quiet was really cool, I will fly gliders when I get the right opportunity.

The big lesson is that you can always lose altitude but without the engine you can't make altitude except for trading-in airspeed. If you throw the side of a plane into the wind in a slip with a control to the stop it will drop like a rock. So always stay upwind and over your chosen landing spot until your final approach.

I think the reason the guy wanted to do that was that he had lost a plane when a renter/student ran his plane out of fuel and panicked. The pilot walked away but the plane was in the woods until spring when the snow melted and the insurance wouldn't pay until they had the plane and it was a big mess.