Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help




Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > General Discussions > Off-Topic Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-12-2004, 09:56 PM
webwench
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Old guys and their vehicles

I had a full day planned yesterday, a flight lesson to give bright and early Saturday morning, and an aerial photo session planned for shortly thereafter. Never mind it being September 11 (although Darrell, my aerial photographer and friend, said he was a bit nervous and asked me not to mention the date); the weather was beautiful and the planes were waiting.

My first appointment was at 8 AM, PDK airport in Atlanta, with a post-solo student and a Cessna 150 that happens to be five years older than I am. The plan was for me to do a short flight with this student, make sure he's on his game, then send him off on a planned solo cross country flight to Dalton in north Georgia, but a pocket of mist and low crap in Dalton was forecast to stick around most of the day, so the cross-country portion of this flight was scrapped. All we wanted to get in was an hour of local practice.

Despite its age, this airplane is exceptionally well-maintained by its owner, a retired airline and military pilot. The engine compartment is literally clean enough to eat from, which is rare for airplanes used for primary instruction. Generally speaking, things may be aged, but they work. But yesterday wasn't our day; the radios would power up, but the digital display on the radios was inoperative, making it impossible to know what frequency we were currently on, impossible to dial in another frequency. Particularly at a towered airport, this is a no-go item. I turned them off and on a few times, jiggled the unit (for the communication and navigation radios are in a single unit), rolled the frequency selection knobs a bit and flipped garbled frequencies between the active and standby windows, tapped the frequency display a couple of times, etc, but to no avail. The flight was scrubbed. I left a message for the owner to apprise him of his problem.

Enroute to meet Darrell and follow him to another airport, Covington, east of Atlanta, where we would be taking off on our aerial photo mission, I got a call back from the owner of the 150. He explained that this happens now and then, especially after it rains, or on a cold day, or particularly when both conditions apply. Yesterday was not a cold day, and it had been a few days since it had rained, but we'll overlook that. "You just have to let them warm up," he explained, "maybe ten minutes, long enough to get through the runup. Usually it's cleared up by the time you need to talk to tower. If you're lucky, the last guy to fly it left the ATIS and ground frequencies in." At the end of the phone call, I was promising to drive out to PDK later in the day to make sure a good warm-up would indeed render the radios usable again.

In other words, this was a case of mechanical witchcraft syndrome. In an older vehicle of any kind, there are a few things that don't work just right and so you just ignore them, and a few things you gotta jiggle just right if they act funny, and the like. It's a defining characteristic of most old vehicles, as you probably know being on this forum. It's also common to old guys who own these old vehicles that they know all the tricks, but the tricks have become so ingrained that it doesn't occur to them to convey the arcane rights to their disciples. Really, these guys need to work up a supplemental manual, to which they add entries as they encounter malfunctions and determine the proper exorcising rite to use to address it, because without that manual, 'borrowers' like me sometimes get stuck. It's often difficult for the initiate to determine if a given problem is a failure, or one of things you have to jiggle the key just right to get it to work.

At Covington, our aerial photo plane, a Cessna 172 that is also, if I'm not mistaken, older than I am, waits for us. Darrell's dad is part-owner, which is how we have free access to it. It is also moderately less well-maintained, despite the fact the other owner is an A&P, but it is certainly airworthy. Usually. But again, yesterday wasn't our day. Once preflighted and buckled in, I engaged the starter, and although the starter itself was doing just fine, it wouldn't engage the prop. Again, I try to anticipate the proper spell to use, guessing that although the starter isn't engaging at the moment, moving the prop to another position may give the starter better bite. We go through the ritual several times: turning off the master and the mags, moving the prop to another position, turning everything on again, and cranking the starter, but our strategy was unsuccessful. The last few attempts, the starter made a pretty nasty grinding noise as it wound down, which seemed to me a sign that it was time to stop trying. I called the aforementioned A&P to inquire whether there was anything else I ought to try. "Not unless you want to hand-prop it," he said. "And I wouldn't advise that." "No," I agreed, "Homey doesn't hand-prop." Especially when you consider it's been ages since I saw an older Cessna with a working parking brake, heh. So that was that, until the starter is repaired or replaced.

Two scrapped flights on September 11; maybe someone was trying to tell us something. Darrell and I went off to retrieve his dad, who was waiting at a major intersection near one of our photgraphy sites with a handheld radio, intending to direct us to our target, which he felt we may not be able to identify easily from the air. We found him standing by his parked car in an empty church parking lot, radio in hand, looking up at the sky. As we drove up, he said someone had just flown overhead, and he thought it was us, so he'd been directing 'us' on the agreed-upon frequency. "I was yelling at him because he went flying off the wrong way," he said. "I wondered where you damned fools were going."

Picture a man in his sixties, standing in a church parking lot just off a major thoroughfare, stained as always with printer's ink, staring at the sky and shouting angrily into a radio. If he'd been wearing a tinfoil hat someone may have had him committed -- or he may have garnered a few disciples, who knows.

On the way there, Darrell and I had speculated that his dad would probably have some sort of folk remedy we should have applied to the starter in question. "You know," Darrell said, "park it with the cowling facing the sun so it gets nice and warmed up, then walk around it backwards three times, say a prayer, and start it up." I laughed, because the best thing about the witchcraft syndrome is that this is perfectly plausible. The true test of the typical old guy vehicle wizard is to ask him whether a certain sequence of witchcraft will indeed revive a piece of hardware. A skeptic, unschooled in the dark arts, will dismiss the ritual out of hand. The true old guy will have to think about it a while before dismissing it. So we asked him.

"So, dad," Darrell asked, after explaining our problem. "Do you think it might have helped if we turned the 172 into the sun for a while, let the starter get warmed up, and then tried it?"

His dad thought about it a while, turning the possibilities over in his mind. "No," he finally allowed, "I don't think that would have helped." We had to laugh.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-13-2004, 01:16 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: North Central Kentucky
Posts: 1,068
Machinery can be picky. I can start my daughter's car just by leaning in the window and turning the key. She has to try the gas at several different positions and it takes several tries. Then again, when I approach her car it is usually to administor some sort of help or care. Katrina pretty much just drives it (and hard sometimes, I think). But she is getting better. She had a ball joint seperate the other night (since repaired by me, I'll get the other one after Mid-Ohio week). When the car squeaked at her, she brought it home and hauled out the breaker bar and flat jack to see if the right side was gonna pop too. And she yelled at her boyfriend for not torqueing down the wheel properly after we were finished checking the ball joint! HUMMM, she reminds me of another woman I know of who drives an older MB (and a diesel at that!)
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-13-2004, 09:12 AM
mplafleur's Avatar
User Friendly
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Lathrup Village, Michigan
Posts: 2,939
A fellow pilot, great! (although I shamlessly am non-current) CFI/CFII?

I have started to build my own plane after helping a few other build theirs for the last 1 1/2 years. No rivets for me, this is an epoxy/fiberglass canard with a turbo rotary.

It's odd how we get into these planes and when something doesn't work, it's ok to tap, mash or shake it until it works. Then we forget about it. Think about the hard starting 172. What if you finally did get it going, then on a really long final the engine quit. Too far from the runway to make it, trim for best glide and try to restart. Hmmm, better point it back into the sun and say a prayer. Forget about walking around it three times.

My buddy went up for a lesson awhile ago and noticed a screw on the floor under the panel. He picked it up and crawled under the dash looking to see where it went and if it could possibly be important while the instructor was looking at him oddly as if he had three heads and why were they all concerned at all with that screw that dropped out of the instrument panel. After all, if it were important, it wouldn't have fallen out.
__________________
Michael LaFleur

'05 E320 CDI - 86,000 miles
'86 300SDL - 360,000 miles
'85 300SD - 150,000 miles (sold)
'89 190D - 120,000 miles (sold)
'85 300SD - 317,000 miles (sold)
'98 ML320 - 270,000 miles (sold)
'75 300D - 170,000 miles (sold)
'83 Harley Davidson FLTC (Broken again) :-(
'61 Plymouth Valiant - 60k mikes
2004 Papillon (Oliver)
2005 Tzitzu (Griffon)
2009 Welsh Corgi (Buba)

Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-13-2004, 10:10 AM
webwench
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by mplafleur
A fellow pilot, great! (although I shamlessly am non-current) CFI/CFII?

It's odd how we get into these planes and when something doesn't work, it's ok to tap, mash or shake it until it works. Then we forget about it. Think about the hard starting 172. What if you finally did get it going, then on a really long final the engine quit. Too far from the runway to make it, trim for best glide and try to restart. Hmmm, better point it back into the sun and say a prayer. Forget about walking around it three times.
I'm CFII, MEI, although I haven't flown a twin in several years... just got recurrent for instrument flight after a similarly long period of VFR-only flight. It's just a hobby now, no longer a full-time job, and you know how hard it can be to maintain currency under those conditions. (Problem is, I have too many hobbies I'm trying to fit into my available free time.)

Darrell and I talked about the possibility of needing a restart in the air, and what I told him was, the odds of the engine quitting in the air were so small that it was a risk I didn't have any heartburn taking. But it is certainly a valid concern.

Imagine the 'old days' when engine failures were actually fairly common, AND the only starter many of these planes came equipped with was a guy on the ground with strong arms! Yet they still flew a lot of hours in those airplanes.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-13-2004, 10:51 AM
Jim B+
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
"Living machinery and dead machinery"...

Living machinery is intended to interact with the operator, and the operator's skills and know-how play an essential part in how the machine in question does or doesn't perform. Tube radios, sailboats, cars of a certain age, mechanical clocks and watches, and certain light aircraft all fall into the "living machinery" category..."dead machinery" you just punch the buttons until nothing happens anymore, and then just walk away from it...a television set or BIC lighter are good examples. We may spend thousands of hours in front of a TV set, but once worn out, it seems they get thrown away and never enter our thoughts again.

A guy who flies traffic patrol in a light plane in the DC metro area takes care to spray down the leading edge of each wing from a yellow can before takeoff...It's Lemon Pledge, which make it easier to clean off all the insects the wing accumulates on morning flights. My favorite light aircraft is the DeHaviland Beaver floatplane.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-13-2004, 10:54 AM
webwench
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobK
...She had a ball joint seperate the other night (since repaired by me, I'll get the other one after Mid-Ohio week). When the car squeaked at her, she brought it home and hauled out the breaker bar and flat jack to see if the right side was gonna pop too. And she yelled at her boyfriend for not torqueing down the wheel properly after we were finished checking the ball joint! HUMMM, she reminds me of another woman I know of who drives an older MB (and a diesel at that!)
I believe your daughter trumps me by far in the car-knowledge department

I'm a little envious, really. My dad didn't live locally as I was growing up, and although I visited him every two weeks (flying from Atlanta to Chicago each time to do it, too, hence perhaps the aviation interest), and he's a mechanical-minded guy, he didn't have time to maintain vehicles and so simply paid other people to do that with what were always new vehicles. I didn't get to sit at someone's knee and learn this stuff. Your daughter is very lucky to have your assistance, expertise, and frankly your time.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-11-2004, 10:45 AM
engatwork's Avatar
busy
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Soperton, Ga. USA
Posts: 12,369
I got my pilot's license when I was a senior in high school (1975). My father had purchased a 1974 Cherokee PA-180 (4 seater) the year before and I took lessons until I turned 18 and was able to get my license. Took some instrument training (never got the inst rating) and have approximately 550 hours now. That was a good little plane - I even got up the nerve to fly into Hartsfield one time - before they required an encoding altimeter. It was nerve racking because the controller told me to keep up speed on final as much as I could. Heck, I was almost at cruising speed coming down final approach - thankfully they got plenty of runway.
__________________
Jim
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-11-2004, 11:10 AM
webwench
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
I had a student who bought a Cherokee 140 to do his initial training in, and I did my private license in a Warrior -- nice airplanes, a very different feel from the Cessna 150s and 172s I use now. Like you, I got my private in high school, out of PDK in 1989-1990, and to this day I have never landed at Hartsfield. I flew into DC once, Orlando a few times, and over New York a few times enroute between Virginia and Connecticut, but generally there's no space for 'the little guys' in these big class-Bs anymore.

I used to take students into Richmond (a lowly class C) for the big-airport experience, so they could learn how to do that 90-kt approach

Do you still fly now?
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-11-2004, 12:43 PM
engatwork's Avatar
busy
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Soperton, Ga. USA
Posts: 12,369
Quote:
Do you still fly now?
nope - Dad sold the plane when the insurance got too expensive and I have not flown in a couple years. He got as much out of it when he sold it around '85 as what he had paid for it. A pretty good investment.

We took lessons at Warner Robins Air Park which is a grass strip and I flew into DC around 1978. Pretty neat flying out of there and being able to see the Capital building and all that.
__________________
Jim
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-11-2004, 12:43 PM
dmorrison's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Colleyville, Texas
Posts: 2,694
Webwrench
Was wondering if you were still actively flying. I went to your website to look at the Mercedes and off on the site I saw the flying experience.
Your first post you summarized the typical " sometimes you shouldn't be flying" senario.
I fly MD80 for American Airlines, New years eve 1990 I was a DC10 copilot on a flight into LGA. Leveling off at FL260 over BWI on the arrival into LGA the aircraft filled with smoke. We advised center of smoke in the cockpit and 8 minutes later we were touching down at BWI. Stopped at the intersection of the 2 long runways and evacuated. Shut the airport down for 6 hours. No DC10 towbar at BWI. The cause of the smoke was a failed main bearing seal in one of the airconditioning/pressurization units (we call "packs"). At least it was not a fire. But the philosophy NEEDS to be where theres smoke, theres fire. There is no where to go in an aircraft that is on fire. always treat smoke as a MAJOR emergency. Our smoke elimination check list is designed for 30W longitude, 1/2 way across the Atlantic Ocean. You have no where to go so you HAVE to figure it out. The whole procedure will take 20-30 minutes to complete. We were on the ground in 8 minutes.
New years eve 1991 As a Captain on the MD80 a flight from CMH, Columbus Ohio to DFW. The nose gear would not come all the way up. We were 10,000 lbs over maximum landing weight. Had to burn the 10,000 lbs in fuel ( MD80's do not have a fuel dump system. We can land at maximum takeoff weight but this was not a time critical situation, so we would burn the fuel) We flew gear down to ORD. Made a normal landing.
New years eve 1991 telling the FO about the 2 previous new years eve trips and "laughing a little". Took off on Rwy 18L at DFW and a fine mist of smoke started to fill the cockpit at about 100' AGL. Learned from the DC10 incident that 90% of smoke incidents are pack related. So we shut off the 2 packs in the aircraft and did a right 270 and landed on rwy 13R ( I know, actually a right 310)

SOOOOOOO I do not fly on New Years Eve. Never. Sometimes you just have to take a hint.

The second book idea for the C150. Actually the FAA would have a hayday with that. Keeping a second "log" book on discrepancies is a big no-no. so I understand why it is not done. I understand your side of the story but the liability is not worth it. He really should replace the radios, or have them repaired.

As you posted I prefer the low wing aircraft over the high wing. Don't know why, just do. I have flown quite a bit of both. 1/2 of my private was in a Cherokee 140 the other 1/2 a C150. From that point I flew 90% Cessna through my CFII. Actually I got my ATP in a C172RG. Went on to fly a C141 in the Reserves, another high wing aircraft, but at 325,000lbs you really don't notice. Since then its been all low wing, 727,MD80 and DC10.

My son is instrucing at GPM, Grand Prairie, Texas, a Cessna dealer. Has done a few BFR's in low wing aircraft and he prefers them.

You wrote
"I used to take students into Richmond (a lowly class C) for the big-airport experience, so they could learn how to do that 90-kt approach"

I used to love those. Cruise speed to 300' AGL. Then idle until touchdown.
then takeoff was IMMEDIATE right/left turn after takeoff. Our typical appraoch speeds in the MD80 are 120-130 knots. Higher then a 172 cruise speed. Out typical takeoff (rotate) speed vary with weight and temp. They range from 120kts/light to 168kts/heavy-hot

I used to work at Knightdale airport east of RDU in college. A lineboy. It was a small 3000' X 27' wide runway. Uncontrolled. The guys there used to pay for the aircraft and have me bring them into RDU. It scared them. 2 big runways at that time and a tower. I always thought it was a hoot. I could not understand why it scared them. But I soloed under the NYC TCA ( I know Class B airspace) at FRG, Farmingdale NY.

Propping an aircraft. I used to do it at Knightdale. Not something I erally liked doing. can be very dangerous if not properly trained. Much easier in a taildragger, gives you a better angle. and a C172 is about the largest engine you would want to do. the 6 cyulinders become more dangerous, they just take to much muscle to do it and it can position you wrong and dangerously.

Keep the flying going and enjoy it. Also keep the Mercedes going. The more you learn about your car the more you will know about your aircraft systems.

Dave
__________________
1970 220D, owned 1980-1990
1980 240D, owned 1990-1992
1982 300TD, owned 1992-1993
1986 300SDL, owned 1993-2004
1999 E300, owned 1999-2003
1982 300TD, 213,880mi, owned since Nov 18, 1991- Aug 4, 2010 SOLD
1988 560SL, 100,000mi, owned since 1995
1965 Mustang Fastback Mileage Unknown(My sons)
1983 240D, 176,000mi (My daughers) owned since 2004
2007 Honda Accord EX-L I4 auto, the new daily driver
1985 300D 264,000mi Son's new daily driver.(sold)
2008 Hyundai Tiberon. Daughters new car

Last edited by dmorrison; 11-11-2004 at 12:52 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-11-2004, 12:46 PM
TwitchKitty's Avatar
Just fix it
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Varies
Posts: 3,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by mplafleur
Think about the hard starting 172. What if you finally did get it going, then on a really long final the engine quit. Too far from the runway to make it, trim for best glide and try to restart.
The only time I have had an engine quit we killed it intentionally. To get the prop to stop turning I had to nearly stall the plane. That was a Cessna 140 and the owner wanted to see me do a deadstick landing before he would turn me loose with it.

I suspect that the prop was turning fast enough to restart the engine, don't know. I didn't think about trying it until the prop was stopped and I was much closer to the ground.
__________________
And that's the way it is. Sorry if this is not what you wanted to hear. I reserve the right to be wrong, others take the liberty. My posts are not intended to be complete, just enough to help you find your own answers. Don't let the Relevance Paradox get you.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-11-2004, 02:12 PM
webwench
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwitchKitty
The only time I have had an engine quit we killed it intentionally. To get the prop to stop turning I had to nearly stall the plane. That was a Cessna 140 and the owner wanted to see me do a deadstick landing before he would turn me loose with it.

I suspect that the prop was turning fast enough to restart the engine, don't know. I didn't think about trying it until the prop was stopped and I was much closer to the ground.
Whoo, I don't like the sound of intentionally shutting down the engine on a single-engine airplane at all, talk about creating an unnecessary emergency... Only on a twin have I shut down an engine intentionally, and it's not always easy to start it up again even when you still have one engine pulling for you and all the time in the world to do it in!

dmorrison, I used to have all kinds of people come to me for BFRs who hadn't flown into a controlled airport since they got their license. As part of my BFR checkout they got to go into Richmond, though -- at least go through the airspace...

And I've never had a problem with that radio since, even on cold, wet days! Which is a good thing, because unlike the owner, I won't taxi out under the assumption things will work ok 'once they warm up a bit'.

Last edited by webwench; 11-11-2004 at 02:17 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-12-2004, 12:55 PM
TwitchKitty's Avatar
Just fix it
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Varies
Posts: 3,364
What do you think about spin training? I always wanted to do it and never did. I think that practicing stalls with the wings level is a joke after initial familiarization. We can fly around in Cessna singles all day with the stall horn blaring, no problem, slight exaggeration. But when a wing drops hard in a stall it is another situation and much better preparation for an emergency to my way of thinking.
__________________
And that's the way it is. Sorry if this is not what you wanted to hear. I reserve the right to be wrong, others take the liberty. My posts are not intended to be complete, just enough to help you find your own answers. Don't let the Relevance Paradox get you.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-12-2004, 02:15 PM
webwench
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Well, 'back in my day', the chief flight instructor where I did my initial training did spin and spin recovery training with all its pre-private students. Because the spin training wasn't necessary for the private pilot license at that time, we had to wear parachutes for it, and thinking about what that parachute was for was scarier than the actual spin work by far. I went through it again at greater length during my CFI training, and later during some aerobatics training. Not so scary really after the first time, although you'll certainly get a new appreciation for proper use of rudder! I used to demonstrate spin entries and recoveries to some of my more adventurous private and commercial students in my instructing days when I had an appropriate aircraft available, and always felt it was beneficial for them to experience this.

As for good wing-dropping stalls, I have found that many students won't use enough right rudder during a power-on stall entry without prompting, so an effective demonstration tool if you will is to allow them to do the full-power stall with the rudder uncoordinated in this fashion. They'll get the wing drop then, whether they wanted to or not

The FAA now goes back and forth on whether private pilot applicants ought to be required to demonstrate full stalls at all I think there are a lot of people flying today with an unfounded fear of stall practice due to what I think is overconservatism about stall and spin training. The time to try 'scary' stuff is when you have an instructor in the plane with you, after all!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-12-2004, 03:36 PM
kpb's Avatar
kpb kpb is offline
just a guy
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Central/SE Ohio -- Heart of the Rustbelt
Posts: 810
Ok, I give up...I have been fiddlin' around trying to quote webwench so I can comment, BUT, since I'm an avowed technoboob, I'll put in my $.02 without fancy-schmancy quoting, OK?

Madam webwench, you are speaking specifically of me when you commented on pilots staying out of Class B/C/D after getting their ticket, aren't you?

Got my ticket in 09/00 and have not talked with ATC since, even though I've been current throughout. I know, I know, it's bad for me, I'll go blind etc. Just haven't made a point of doing it. But honest, I will soon. Think I'll zip into some D space in the next few weeks just to re-acclimate meself. Ironically, just did my BFR 09/04 30nm from Class C but didn't really go close (of course, a Presidential TFR was also in place that day )

Any way, excellent story to start the thread. Follow-up comments also enlightening. Guess I should find an aviation forum to get this stuff daily, huh? Any recommendations? The only sites I visit (daily) are the ones which feed my (probably unachievable) dream of ownership -- Of all things, a Tripacer or Pacer, once I get a taildragger endorsement.

Oh yeah, on the spin stuff. My instructor did a couple spin entries for me just before my checkride -- AWESOME . Of course, he showed recovery as well. Came in handy about a year or so after I got my ticket when I somehow did something while practicing a power-off stall (way up high) and entered something which I guess was an incipient spin?!? Pretty much messed my pants but came out with plenty of room to spare. I used to always practice stalls every time I flew, sorta fell out of the habit after that. Think I did not have the ailerons truly neutral as I intended. Still do stalls regularly, just not every time. I also did not realize the full signficance of picking the wing up with the rudder until I did it on my checkride and the examiner was truly complimentary (and this is the fellow who sat patiently while I tried to taxi out for the practical with the chocks in place.)

'nuff said.

Last edited by kpb; 11-12-2004 at 03:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page