First overtly political thread from the left. Is hiring Illegal Aliens Treason?

[KirkVining]

Originally Posted by narwhal

I didn't read all the posts, but to respond to the original, no it is not treason to hire illegals, unless you hire them for treasonous activity. It should be a crime with a civil penalty. It should not be a felony b/c there are so many ways illegals can scam employers into thinking they are legit.

Example: if you hire a sex offender to run a daycare after a legitimate background check reveals nothing, should you go to jail when something happens? I say no. However, should there be some civil redress? I say yes--the search may have been diligent enough for the state, but still negligent that resulted in harm.

Come on, Narwahl. I know how the hiring system works on these guys. The documentation laws are shot full of loop holes, and the business lobby put them in there. No picture IDs required. One study showed that you have to show more ID to get a Blockbuster card than you do a job. Granted, to police the employers we would need to set up an ID system in each state or nationally where those who don't have a drivers license (and who doesn't) are required to get a non-drivers version of a picture ID like a lot of states issue, altho what I would really like to see is a national bio-metrics based identificaton sytem. It is also a stretch that your average person sitting behind the desk at HR isn't acutely aware the person sitting in front of them is an illegal alien. Let's stop making excuses and loopholes for employers, and bust their asses instead.

My reasoning for why it is treason is simple. We have been invaded. What has happened to us is no different than a military invasion, and our federal government, who is supposed to defend us from invasion, instead colludes with the enemy bcause one segment of the population benefits from the invading army and gives the invading army money and support. What is going on is nothing short of treason.

[boneheaddoctor]

And as strange as I find it I actually agree with KV on this issue.

[GermanStar]

Originally Posted by KirkVining

My reasoning for why it is treason is simple. We have been invaded. What has happened to us is no different than a military invasion, and our federal government, who is supposed to defend us from invasion, instead colludes with the enemy bcause one segment of the population benefits from the invading army and gives the invading army money and support. What is going on is nothing short of treason.

Unless you believe that this is a covert and organized attempt to infiltrate or overthrow our government, it's different. I find the whole situation utterly bizarre and reprehensible, but I wouldn't characterize it as treason. As a sidenote, I'd just like to add that most people outside of TX, AZ, and CA (OK -- maybe FL) probably cannot comprehend the depth and scope of the problem, or the ways in which it effects our lives.

[GermanStar]

Originally Posted by boneheaddoctor

And as strange as I find it I actually agree with KV on this issue.

I can feel the love!

[KirkVining]

Originally Posted by boneheaddoctor

And as strange as I find it I actually agree with KV on this issue.

I think on this issue, both parties sell out the people for different reasons. The dems love the illegals because they have kids here who grow up to be democrats. The Republicans love them because they fatten profits. Both push this "we need more enforcement at the border" and "arrest them all" crap because they both know it will not work. It would take the entire US Army to arrests the 3 million or so illegals in Houston alone. The cure to this problem is to legaize the ones that are here, and then set up some type of system where those that hire those who arrive after that point go to jail. Both sides need to stop buying the propaganda supplied by there own particular political party - they are both selling us down the river.

[KirkVining]

Originally Posted by GermanStar

Unless you believe that this is a covert and organized attempt to infiltrate or overthrow our government, it's different. I find the whole situation utterly bizarre and reprehensible, but I wouldn't characterize it as treason. As a sidenote, I'd just like to add that most people outside of TX, AZ, and CA (OK -- maybe FL) probably cannot comprehend the depth and scope of the problem, or the ways in which it effects our lives.

Like I said, the real eye opener was the situation I observed where I witnessed an illegal being hired for a white collar job, and the sense I got that corporate manangement is now actively seeking out people like that for those jobs. That and the total collapse of the skilled-trades market in Texas for American citizens due to the huge influx of Mexican carpenters, plumbers and masons, now means this invasion threatens the American middle class. In general, they make docile employees who work for less and never ask for a raise, that is if they know whats good for them. Their lower pay scale also drives down the pay scale of legal workers in similiar jobs. It is anti-American to me. I think if we look at this as Americans - we have two choices, either invite the entire country of Mexico to become part of the US so we don't have a slave class in our midst (which I think they would do in heartbeat), or start doing the things that will actually stop this instead of buying the same sucker story we have been getting from the politicians for 30 years. In addition, I would look at your response that disagrees with my characterization of this as invasion and treason and ponder the word "infiltrate" a little. We have been infiltrated. A foreign country has infiltrated and invaded us, with the collusion and support of traitors among us. I fail to see how the fact they did it with out guns makes the situation's eventual outcome any different than if they had tanks and rifles.

[Hatterasguy]

Unfortunitly I don't think this problem will be solved unless another 9/11 happens. Neither party wants to lose the Mexican vote so we are stuck with this problem unitl it runs its full course.

What will happen in 50 years? Will Mexico become the 51st state? Will some states try to leave the Republic and go back to Mexico? These people are not stupid and wont work for nothing forever.

[AustinsCE]

I still dont understand why legal Mexican americans, hispanics? whatever, get angry when a politician says close the borders, send illegals back. Its like theres this constituency of criminals and supporters of criminal activity and nobody wants to touch it for politcal correctness/gain I guess?

[boneheaddoctor]

Originally Posted by AustinsCE

I still dont understand why legal Mexican americans, hispanics? whatever, get angry when a politician says close the borders, send illegals back. Its like theres this constituency of criminals and supporters of criminal activity and nobody wants to touch it for politcal correctness/gain I guess?

Exactly.......

Originally Posted by AustinsCE

I still dont understand why legal Mexican americans, hispanics? whatever, get angry when a politician says close the borders, send illegals back. Its like theres this constituency of criminals and supporters of criminal activity and nobody wants to touch it for politcal correctness/gain I guess?

I think some people feel there is a less-savory sentiment behind the anti-illegal-immigration folks, namely a dislike for Mexicans.

I'm not saying that applies to anyone here.

[boneheaddoctor]

Originally Posted by webwench

I think some people feel there is a less-savory sentiment behind the anti-illegal-immigration folks, namely a dislike for Mexicans.

I'm not saying that applies to anyone here.

I for one don't dislike LEGAL immigrants, most of my friends are legal immigrants. But the Illegal ones......well they have no rights and have no right to be here. Contrary to what liberal judges seem to think. There is a thing that countries do have the right to turn away people for any reason. Uneducated? criminal history, terrorist ties? They have no business or rights here.

[KirkVining]

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

Unfortunitly I don't think this problem will be solved unless another 9/11 happens. Neither party wants to lose the Mexican vote so we are stuck with this problem unitl it runs its full course.

What will happen in 50 years? Will Mexico become the 51st state? Will some states try to leave the Republic and go back to Mexico? These people are not stupid and wont work for nothing forever.

The unification of the US and Mexico is inevitable. Its already occurred in my opinion. They are on their way to becoming the majority in this country, and once they are, the official unification will occur. We actually would both benefit from it - they have lots of oil and unexplored oil potential, and despite the rampant crime the majority, decent Mexican people are a highly moral people who value family above all else, which is one of the things that makes them such good workers and such a good fit in American society. They desperately need an American style system of justice, and they know it, which is one of the reasons I believe they would do it in a heart beat - the majority of Mexicans would do anything to get out from under the yoke of the corrupt politicians, police and gangs that rule Mexico. It would also right two great wrongs - one the denial of democractic rights like the right to representation when subject to taxation, and another great historical wrong, the theft of half of Mexico by our fore-fathers. The Mexican War was one of the great wrongs of US history, and in many ways, the sympathy I feel for these people is that this used to be their land and in many ways they have as much right to be here as I do. They are not exactly foreigners, in fact many of them are also descended from Indians who fled our genocidal massacres of these people. Indian cuture survived in Mexico because the Pope forbed the murder and enslavement of them, which is why there are millions of Indians in Mexcio and only a few hundred thousand here in the States. I would say that the great majority of Mexicans that come here are descended from those Indians - in other words they are our own people coming back.

[KirkVining]

Originally Posted by AustinsCE

I still dont understand why legal Mexican americans, hispanics? whatever, get angry when a politician says close the borders, send illegals back. Its like theres this constituency of criminals and supporters of criminal activity and nobody wants to touch it for politcal correctness/gain I guess?

I'll tell you exactly why. One of the most tragic situations I ever witnessed in my life was in Ft Worth, Texas, where a teenage friend of my sons, woke up one day and found out his parents were on a green bus on the way back to Mexico. Shortly thereafter, CPS showed up, and packed him and his sisters off to foster homes. His parents cleaned toilets to support those five kids, and inspite of the poverty they lived in they had a happy home and they were always welcome in my house. I have never in my life forgetton the situation, and I hate the kind of thinking in this country that leads to that. It is simply unjust. The Mexican people who live legally here have grandparents sometimes even children who could be subject to deportation. It took that kids parents I'm talking about years to find all their children. Its is simply unjust. People mouth these AM radio slogans about rounding these people up not even realizing they are talking about babies being taken from their mothers and teenage boys losing their fathers at a time of life they need them the most. I hate the whole god damned thing.

[KirkVining]

Originally Posted by narwhal

Well Kirk, I still disagree with your treason theory, but see the logic of the rest of your response. Thanks for the civil response by the way

I can tell you from first hand experience, that in my state, there aren't many loopholes. Last year, a prominent chicken processor was busted to the tune of millions of dollars for knowingly using illegal labor. I never argued against stricter enforcement on hiring illegals--I am all for that, but differ with you in thinking that jail time is appropriate for that crime and that it constitues treason. As German Star pointed out, it does not constitute treason under the current definition of the law.

Oh, I agree with you that it does not meet the legal definition - I think the law needs to be changed so that it does, because it certainly meets the conceptual definition.

I wonder if the chicken processor is the same company I was talking about that employeess 22,000 illegals in Texas. States treat illegals differently - in New Hampshire and most of the other big union states, the local cops bust them, and they languish in state jails until the feds come get them, sometimes for months. Considering that Northern cops and jailers are union guys, they make sure they have a very unpleasant time, and the word gets around among them to stay out of New Hampshire.

Here in Texas, its all about not being my job to arrest them - its the feds that have to do it. Nobody GAS.

As far as jail time goes, you know as well as I do that if CEOs are looking at going to the pokey then they will spend the money and time to make sure it doesn't happen. I'm sure lots of them are rethinking their accounting practices right now.

[boneheaddoctor]

Originally Posted by narwhal

Diff company, er, I know something about their biz and they have no plants in Texas However, Tyson has been busted in Arkansas in the last two years for the same thing.

I think Tysons, or was it Perdue got busted in MD for something simular.