He is addressing computer scientists. There is a huge difference between the programmers he is referring to and "programmers" i.e. the low skill, slow pace programmers i.e. the people that think they are programmers because they "know" HTML and VB (and have no desire to learn anything else). I am dissing the limited, focused on one technology, get it done now whether it's software or not, type job rather than those particular technologies. He is talking about the people that create new technologies instead of using/re-writing old ones. The jobs that are being outsourced to India are low skill jobs. Graduate with a C from any good university and you will start out at $55K+ (or $70K-$90K if you are in a larger city). I am a 3rd year and this summer I am making that. Get a graduate degree and you are starting out at $120K (or several hundred K if you are in a large city).

Um..I beg to differ..........these guys are outsourcing the heavy duty programmers........A lot of my new customers the last 3 years are software houses owned and staffed by Indians....with an office and a few people here but all work done overseas....I know of 12 places in the DC area that do just that...

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"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Handwriting and speech recognition is improving. ASIMO. The ability to model biology (neurons, synapses), weather, etc. is improving (although we need SOOOO much more processing power). Computer architecture is being radically redesigned to allow heat dissapation and more even distribution. Processor caches are going to be drastically changed to accommodate new designs (i.e. control by a programmer instead of an algorithm). Sure it will take a while for these improvements to work their way into the next "killer app" but it will happen.

I consider Napster and iTunes to be killer apps. The ability to get instant access to a huge library of music with accurate meta data is a pretty big change. Self service/pay groceries and gas stations are another example of a recent killer app. Although some might suggest that isn't an improvement. Maybe you're right. Technology is stagnant. Oooops gotta go. My stove just informed me that the cookies are burning ...

Outsourcing = the real Y2K effect on our computer systems.

What I have been seeing is H1-B scams. A company advertises for some flavor of IT that requires a master's degree, for $10 an hour. When no one applies, a "shortage" of that type of programmer is declared, allowing the company to apply for an H1-B visa for some Indian guy hiding in his brother's closet. Indian guy gets visa, and goes to work for $9 per hour. Indian guys gets tourist visa for his other brother, now that the closet is free.

I'll take your word for it. There are obviously skilled people in India but everything is dirt cheap also. Infrastructure costs money because it's worth it. I think the majority of the stuff getting shipped out of the country is stuff that their infrastructure can handle better than ours. The main thing that India has going for it is that in some parts of the country there is a strong cultural push to become a professional i.e. accountant, programmer, lawyer, doctor etc. Many of these kids are required get a doctorate. If they move back to India and are more qualified then it is fair that they get the job.

THese guys work realtime......dedicated T-1 and E-1 lines between offices let them do this....same methodology Call centers use overseas....I have several customers running callcenters in India and the Phillipines using the same infrastructure I provide them. Medical transcriptions are frequently done offshore too the same way.....the communications lines are costly...but paying someone dirt wages and no benifits let them do it and save a few bucks.....so the fat cats can waste the savings on themselves.

Wages are dirt cheap in India...and colege educations are free IF you have the grades and contacts to get into school....they can work cheap becasue they got no student loans to pay off, plus everyone else is even more poor over there...

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Proud owner of ....
1971 280SE W108
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1983 300D W123
1975 Ironhead Sportster chopper
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1989 Honda Civic (Heavily modified)
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Section 609 MVAC Certified
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"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche

I was dealing with a large US software house trying to get a problem fixed. When I wasn't getting anywhere, they finally told me that the developers in Taiwan were on holiday that week.

I'm a systems guy myself, and I found a niche in mainframes, which are making a mini-comeback due to the big push in server consolidation.

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The story I am hearing is that new grads are are facing $60K in student loans and are being told that they need to go back to school and retrain to get a job.

Just yesterday I heard about a guy who is driving a concrete truck to make his student loan payments.

Meanwhile the word is that international employment will set the standard for benefits. Employees here who want benefits will see their jobs move overseas.

Again what you are talking about is not computer science. Although CS students do learn some of the current technologies they are for the most part expected to pick up tools, languages, etc. on their own. You learn how to write compilers, how to write operating systems, software development methods, discrete math, finite state machines, digital logic, how to create micro-processors, develop algorithms, etc. In the course of doing so you might use C#, Java, or some language that no one has even heard of and you will never use again. You are assisted in learning the software and languages but learning the software/language is not the focus. Much of the CS learned 20 years ago is still relevant today. In fact there are a lot of concepts that are almost two hundred years old that form the basis of computing that are still taught today.

http://www.sdsc.edu/ScienceWomen/lovelace.html

Doom and gloom is not the story here. Most that graduate with a Bachelor's from the CS department either go on to graduate school or get a job in the $48K-$80K range. A friend who works at the same place that I do graduated with a C or C+ average in CS last spring and is salaried at $55K + benefits. That is actually quite decent for around here. I would say the average income is $30K- 40K/year here. A really nice 4-5 bedroom house is $250K-$400K.

I always enjoy your comments, Laurence.

Not sure if the killer aps are really so or just incremental. As example since the late 80s restaurants have used an ordering system called Squirrel. This employed a programmed touch screen that provided details down to each chair, table, and meal that each diner had. That was tied to inventory and accounting, and the kitchen. The modern day automated check out tools are more similar, although they now employ an optical scanner, scales and payment processing. It is nice, but largely incremental.

The napster and other file sharing software are very revolutionary and a great example of employing decentralized databases along with a friendly UI.

IMO over over-cook sensors in ovens, right along with the hilarious MCS system in recent issue Mercedes are fun toys but more silly than killer. MS came out with a program recently called One Note. I like it! It employs a tabbed layout, and permits storing in virtually every format imaginable, plus it’s entirely free form, and best of all, it saves as soon as the data hits the page. Its chief shortcoming is that it is clumsy to copy data from one computer to another.

OTOH, speech recognition, once it lands, will change life as we know it. A friend helped develop a tool called the Voice some time ago. Then as now it has a very long way to go. But biometrics is quietly becoming insidious.

But isn't there an irony that Gates, who is probably the most compelling individual for employing over-seas talent, is complaining about the lack of local talent? Heck, he almost single handedly created this problem.

On the other hand, according to someone I spoke with recently our friends in India all get about 16 years of compulsory education. Given the higher standard of education they experience, especially combined with lower pay for their efforts, I can understand why the incentive to hire these folks is there. It is truly the free market at work.

At the same time, it is a betrayal of the local efforts. Rather than try to encourage folks to get a better education, our companies are simply abandoning us. That, IMO is the core issue we face.

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Wow, assumptions like that shouldn't be made by any student of logic, much less by one with such a quality education.

What is important is that you are happy with what you are doing.

Even the numbers you are giving are no reason to jump for joy. At $80K if you are planning to tackle the payments on a $250K+ house I recommend some serious financial planning.

Don't forget that the next class will graduate hungry just about the time that you are looking for a raise.

Don't discount your contemporaries in India. They have better CS schools over there, they just haven't scaled-up for the volume yet.

As do I yours and many of the people on this board.

I haven't used One Note but a student here worked on it as an intern. She was one of a group of students from our school who have either finished an internship or develop at Microsoft to give a presentation and answer questions about what it is like working at Microsoft. There is free pizza/drinks and an XBox (1), games, and software so even the Linux/Mac geeks betray their religion and show up. It sounds like a really fun place to work and the developers there are top notch. The cool thing about an internship at MS is that your code actually goes into the prodcut on the shelf.

What assumptions? Logic is a process that can be applied accurately or not.

Yeah I really enjoy programming. I have been doing it since I was 15.

Most 22 year olds who just graduated from college don't need a really nice 4-5 bedroom house. Most get an apartment or buy a condo and a corvette/cobra.

I won't. I tend to trust my judgement though. I skipped 10-12 grades and went to a community college instead when I was 16 and believe me I heard all sorts of dismal projections about my future from people who don't say much of anything these days.

I don't. When a prof. that I highly respected said that some of the best programmers are Indian I took note. It still doesn't change the fact that the really valuable work is not going to be outsourced to an environment that cannot support it. CS can be fit into an assembly line a little better than math but not much better. a lot of one off business apps sure.

You are absolutely right.

I should keep my mouth shut, since I (a Canadian) have my summer job to thank at the hands of an American company who has outsourced work to another American company (not public) who owns the Canadian company (not public) that employs me .

I get a great hourly wage which, after working the summer, inables me to PAY for my university tuition ($5063.50 this coming september) for the YEAR, with money left over. AND I don't have to worry about paying for hospital stays if I were to ever have an accident or get sick either.

In the province I live in, Ontario, the number of my contemporaries pursuing higher education is quite high. Everyone seems to be educated in Ontario here. I've since, changed my focus in my undergraduate, to stream into going after a profession (not law, by the way). It may be my only hope at a secure future, without the constant worries of job security etc...

I'm scared for you Yankees. You seem to have lost your way, the apathy towards American made products is evidence. I'm scared because I owe my paycheque to American ownership. I personally think most american car products for example, are up to the build quality levels of imported nameplates. People just don't want to buy them (for various image reasons or the halo effect of imported brands on uninformed/anti-car people). I'm a little upset that people here in Canada think cheap goods made in China are the latest, the greatest. When you stop building widgets you open yourselves up for invasion. We are a perfect example (the American branch plant economy which had destroyed most of our Canadian firms after WWI).

We depend on you Yanks for our standard of living, certain groups of us Canucks talk smack/talk tough like we don't need you but, we are weak, we do. If you guys falter, so do we.

What's next?

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