www.talkingpointsmemo.com has a quote from Representative Murtha talking about Cheney: "I like guys who've never been there that criticize us who've been there. I like that. I like guys who got five deferments and never been there and send people to war, and then don't like to hear suggestions about what needs to be done."

I don't know whether Murtha is right about calling for an immediate withdrawal from Iraq, but his military career, legislative record, and sincerity make it hard to write him off. Link: http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?idq=/ff/story/0001/20051117/1835468110.htm&ewp=ewp_news_ireaq&floc=NW_1-T

The draft dodgers in the Bush adminstration might have a hard time smearing this guy.

He is entitled to his opinion, but so are these guys:

http://www.hughhewitt.com/

"As to the Congressman's remarks regarding our Vice President, that is a direct assault on the Constitution of the US which clearly gives the civilians control over the military. You will not meet ONE officer in our Armed Forces who does not believe in this as an article of faith. We have sworn our very lives to its protection. I find it interesting that Cong. Murtha would attack that precept of our governing document. One caller mentioned FDR. What about President Clinton? Was he unqualified to conduct the war in Bosnia due to his contempt for our Armed Forces? NO. He was the president and that makes him the commander in chief, PERIOD. Murtha should be pilloried relentlessly for his seditious remarks and he should never be taken seriously again."

"Congressman Murtha,

PO Box 780
Johnstown, PA 15907-0780

As a U.S. Army veteran of the Vietnam Era and the father of two sons, one a 6 year Army Veteran and the other a 13 year active duty soldier preparing for his 3rd tour in Iraq, I want you to know that I, and they, feel you have abandoned them today. We have great respect for your honorable service but your past service makes it even worse a betrayal of those who fight today!

My oldest son said it best after 9/11 when I told him “well the American people are behind you now”. His response was “yeah Dad….for how long” it didn’t take the Democratic Party very long to abandon them. It took you a little longer but the betrayal is complete. We are winning this war everywhere except at home. You have forgotten what it felt like to be a soldier spit on by your fellow citizens. You join the ranks of those who want to drive military recruiters out of the schools. You sir, should be ashamed."

I'm curious as to the critical comment that Cheney made to which Cngmn. Murtha was replying. Was it criticizing his service as a Marine or as a congressman. Do you have a copy?

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-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

Murtha is not someone to be taken lightly. Korean War Marine vet. He's a hawk. Read his speech this is NOT some light weight.
Look at the WH's response. It's Rove's fingerprints all over it. Problem is the tide is turning. Dirty tricks and smear campaigns won't work now.

I'm sure that Murtha is a bad mammer jammer. However, if we do as he says and leave Iraq now it would be the dumbest move since Chamberlain chatted with Hitler.

I'm sure you'll understand, but I still want to see the remark by Cheney that Murtha is responding to rather than take your "smear won't work" comment. Do you have a copy?

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-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

Ok, here is the link see for yourself. AND, if you get a chance read the congressman's comments re the Speaker of the House and the VPOTUS. http://www.dccc.org/stakeholder/archives/003914.html

Thanks for the quote. The allegations he makes about the war being discredited and an american intelligence failure have been more than discredited. Feel free to peruse the recent thread "WMD, Opinions, facts and lies". For a cogent discussion of these events also look here: http://www.cfr.org/publication.html?id=6861 a bipartisan group. Has a very nice discussion of the "red line" Murtha references and the rest of the "discredited war" argument. It appears that the removal of Hussein was in fact law here in the US, according to the 1998 Iraqi Liberation Act (A quote from Clinton regarding this legislation can be found in my signature). I still haven't gotten a satisfactory answer from anti war people as to how Hussein was to be removed without a war. Perhaps you could give it a try.

Just yesterday I heard a story on the radio, NPR I think, stating that all 4 branches of the service are meeting thier recruitment goals, I'll try to find the link. As for the "9 billion of the 19B allocated..." comment; were not even finished with the first quarter of the fiscal year yet, of course the allocation hasn't been spent, we have another 10 months to do so.

I do wish the Senate and the House would debate the ramifications of pulling out of Iraq immediatly, as Murtha calls for. It's time that there was some intelligent conversation regarding this proposal rather than the political rhetoric that has transpired so far.

I still did not find any comment that Cheney made regarding Murtha on the link you provided. Did I miss it?

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-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

I didn't mean to say that Cheney smeared Murtha. I was referring to the White House's standard operating procedure of attacking critics. I would bet good money that the White House is working on some type of personal attack against Murtha, but they probably won't use it for fear of it backfiring.

Unlike opponents of the Whitehouse who never initiate lying, baseless, ad hominem attacks.

Thank God, I was getting worried. Hadn't seen a Chamberlain reference for a couple of weeks now....

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Te futueo et caballum tuum

1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

Yeah, and Bot really got in a good one about appeasers feeding crocodiles, or something. Wow that was a real zinger, that one.

I don't understand this comment. Murtha expressed his disdain for Dick Cheney. How is that an assault on our Constitution?With all due respect to the author of this letter, how in the hell does he know what Murtha has forgotten?

My reaction to Murtha is two-fold. My immediate reaction was that his proposal sounds like a recipe for disaster. On the other hand, when someone of his stature speaks, I listen. It doesn't mean we all need to bow down to Murtha, but I don't see any grounds for the personal attacks leveled by the authors of the two letters you post. I don't fault either man. I just disagree.

As for Murtha's comment about Cheney, I didn't understand him to be responding to any specific comment that Cheney made. He is just disgusted by the man, as are many Americans. Maybe Murtha should rise above his personal feelings for Cheney, but under the circumstances, we should cut his some slack, IMHO.

I don't know what either of them meant. I posted them as opinion because Murtha gave opinion. In the scope of thing I guess all three statements are worthless with regard to decisionmaking.

BTW, you should check out the www.cfr.org link. Roundabout on page 3 of 10 (when printed) there's a paragraph that starts "as director tenet described in august..." Talks about Cheney and his statements regarding Iraq nuclear capability. Turns out there was information in the NIE that stated Saddam could have nuclear weapons in months. Incidentally, this NIE came was out round about the time that you said Bush made the comment regarding the IAEA report. Think there's any chance he may have confused two agencies at an impromptu press conference?

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-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

I will try to remember to read that when I have more time.That seems like a plausible explanation, but Ari Fleischer's explanations for the President's statements appear to rule it out. Fleischer's first attempt to explain the misstatment was to say that Bush referred to the wrong IAEA report and that he should have referred to a 1991 report. That response has two flaws. First, who cares about a six-month projection made in an 11-year-old report? Second, and more important, the IAEA denies the existence of the 1991 report. Undeterred, Fleischer took the time to write a letter to the editor of the Washington Post in which he said that it wasn't an IAEA report, it was a different report, by a different agency. Unfortunately for Ari, that other report came out after Bush's statement, so I don't think he was relying on it.

I could be wrong about whether this was a lie, but the evidence is there and I think the more likely interpretation is that it was a lie.

Interesting. The date I have for Bush's statement regarding IAEA is end of Sep 2002. Date for NIE release is OCT 2002. The space of a couple of weeks. Do you think maybe the president was pre-briefed? I know that's what I do with my boss before I release a report to public. Not to mention that the info in the NIE is to some degree taken from previous presidential daily intelligence briefings.

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-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

Hysterics, hyperbole, and hyperventilation. Murtha did not challenge the notion of civilian control of the military. Murtha is a civilian. He was criticizing a draft dodger's unwillingness to even listen to a veteran's advice.

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Te futueo et caballum tuum

1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K