It's finally happened: Bill O'Reilly has gone off the deep end - Page 5 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

mikemover · #61 03-15-2006, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

I read one of the horrible things he said had something along the lines of "Israel was founded as a state because it committed acts of terrorism." That is a historical fact. From the beginning, Zionists pushed natives off of their land using varying tactics, few of them legal or moral, and destroyed and massacred many, many villages along the way. How else do you think they got the land they currently occupy?

Seek ye some learning, head in sand boy.

I'm always hesitant to jump to bonehead's defense, but....

Concerning this issue...it appears that your head is the one that is stuck.... in the deep, deep sand of revisionist history concerning Israel.

Haven't we gone over this one before?

Mike

H2O2 · #62 03-16-2006, 12:17 AM

Mike, the terrorist tactics employed by the early Zionists is an indisputably historical fact, no one could possibly deny. Your emerging pro-terrorist stance is illuminating, and quite alarming.

peragro · #63 03-16-2006, 12:22 AM

Interesting article:

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/03/13/D8GAVUF01.html

Just replace "jew" with "palestinian" since the nouveau interpretation is that apparently its the palestinians land that was taken.

mikemover · #64 03-16-2006, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H2O2

Mike, the terrorist tactics employed by the early Zionists is an indisputably historical fact, no one could possibly deny.

Yes, but what happened BEFORE that?..... What so enraged the "Zionists" that they resorted to such measures? That's something that Israel-haters love to fail to mention.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by H2O2

Your emerging pro-terrorist stance is illuminating, and quite alarming.

Whatever.

I've never used the "ignore" feature, even for the likes of KV or bonehead... but some days, you tempt me.

Mike

cmac2012 · #65 03-16-2006, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikemover

I'm always hesitant to jump to bonehead's defense, but....

Concerning this issue...it appears that your head is the one that is stuck.... in the deep, deep sand of revisionist history concerning Israel.

Haven't we gone over this one before?

Lemme see, you've actually studied the history of Israel? Anyone who would try to claim that the state was not built on a foundation of ethnic cleansing and terrorism is in some serious, serious denial.

There were Jews in Palestine before the Zionist thing got going. I understand many of them didn't approve of it. Thought it would spell trouble. Jeez, what a bunch of losers, huh?

cmac2012 · #66 03-16-2006, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikemover

Yes, but what happened BEFORE that?..... What so enraged the "Zionists" that they resorted to such measures? That's something that Israel-haters love to fail to mention.....

One thing that happened before that was the arrival of boatloads of Zionists with deeds to land in the soon to be state of Israel. The land had been "bought" from absentee landlords somewhere, Turkey likely as not, who had never lived on or worked the land they "owned." At some point in the 19th century, bottoom feeders in the Ottoman Empire drew up maps of Palesinian land and apportioned plots to various fellows who had a favor or two coming. Zionists approached these stalwart fellows and asked if they'd like to make some money off of this land.

Imagine the surprise of Palestinian farmers whose families had lived on that land for God only knows how many generations when Zionists arrived and said, "Hi, we just bought your land." They had no recollection of selling it to anyone and did not take kindly to being evicted at the point of a gun.

I submit that this was a bad foot to start out on. I have no doubt that atrocities were committed on both sides in subsequent years. If I'd been a Jew living there, I've no doubt I'd have taken up arms. Ditto if I'd been a Palestinian.

My point is, this nonsense of painting Zionists as the long suffering saints and Palestinians as the scum of the earth is not accurate and will not help us navigate our way out of this imbroglio.

cmac2012 · #67 03-16-2006, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by H2O2

Mike, the terrorist tactics employed by the early Zionists is an indisputably historical fact, no one could possibly deny. Your emerging pro-terrorist stance is illuminating, and quite alarming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikemover

Whatever.

I've never used the "ignore" feature, even for the likes of KV or bonehead... but some days, you tempt me.

Zz, how could you?! Apologize at once!

mikemover · #68 03-16-2006, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Lemme see, you've actually studied the history of Israel?

Yes, actually.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Anyone who would try to claim that the state was not built on a foundation of ethnic cleansing and terrorism is in some serious, serious denial.

There were Jews in Palestine before the Zionist thing got going. I understand many of them didn't approve of it. Thought it would spell trouble. Jeez, what a bunch of losers, huh?

Yes, there were some questionable tactics going on during the formation of the current Jewish state of Israel, and of course I don't approve of such actions....

Although I DO believe these events have been exaggerated and dramatized, in some cases to GREAT extent, by many of Israel's detractors and enemies in the Arab world.

Regardless, the Jewish people were there LONG before any "Zionist" movement, and long before the "Palestinians".....

Almost EVERY neighboring Arabic nation has tried to "cleanse" the area of Jews, on at LEAST one occasion, in some cases more than once. The Palestinians and their supporters can hardly claim any moral high ground on the subject of ethnic cleansing.

Oh, hell... I don't have the patience to rehash all of this right now... We exhausted this topic pretty thoroughly on another thread a few weeks ago...

Just search the archives for it, and save us all a lot of time and typing.

Mike

mikemover · #69 03-16-2006, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Zz, how could you?! Apologize at once!

Believe me, I want nothing from Zeit. Least of all an "apology".

None was asked for, and none is expected.

Mike

cmac2012 · #70 03-16-2006, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikemover

Yes, actually.

Yes, there were some questionable tactics going on during the formation of the current Jewish state of Israel, and of course I don't approve of such actions....

Although I DO believe these events have been exaggerated and dramatized, in some cases to GREAT extent, by many of Israel's detractors and enemies in the Arab world.

Regardless, the Jewish people were there LONG before any "Zionist" movement, and long before the "Palestinians".....

Almost EVERY neighboring Arabic nation has tried to "cleanse" the area of Jews, on at LEAST one occasion, in some cases more than once. The Palestinians and their supporters can hardly claim any moral high ground on the subject of ethnic cleansing.

Oh, hell... I don't have the patience to rehash all of this right now... We exhausted this topic pretty thoroughly on another thread a few weeks ago...

Just search the archives for it, and save us all a lot of time and typing.

You are certain Jews predate Palestinians how?

From what I understand, the heyday of the Jewish Kingdom in the holy lands had a pretty brief rein and run. And uh, if you'll open your bible to the old testament, you'll find that they hacked there way into it spilling mega gallons of blood on the way.

Of course, that is sorta the norm in human history, maybe not the everyday norm, but it damnsure happened, over and over.

The Jewish holy men said God promised them the land. Well duhhh. I wonder what the Arab holy men said about the same land?

Your opinions here seem unfailingly slanted to the Jewish version of events -- both recent and long past. I generally like Jews better than Arabs myself. But that's beside the point. I didn't sign on to helping the Jews fight this fight and the idea that we should devote $Billions and our international reputation to this ham-handedly executed bad idea is ludicrous.

Your patience is indeed lacking. In examination of the historical record, that is.

peragro · #71 03-16-2006, 01:36 AM

Uh, post #63.

One of the seminal parts of the article:

"The original settlement, which dates from the 10th and 9th centuries B.C., is also a new discovery"

cmac2012 · #72 03-16-2006, 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peragro

Uh, post #63.

One of the seminal parts of the article:

"The original settlement, which dates from the 10th and 9th centuries B.C., is also a new discovery"

Yeah, and I'll guarantee you that Native Amercians lived on your land or nearby long before any of your ancestors trod upon that soil. So what? Should we finance an Exodus of Native Ams to your backyard because God promised them that land?

For all sorts of reasons, the Jews, for the most part, left the holy lands. The people who were there imediately before Zionism got up and running had been there continuously for some time.

It was an awkward way to introduce themselves to their new neighbors. Jews for Justice in the Middle East have documented many, many items in the historical record that indicate Zionists wished to simply export the Palestinians somewhere, anywhere, else. Just sweep that debris aside.

It was a recipe for disaster, and whatayouknow. Disaster is what we got.

mikemover · #73 03-16-2006, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peragro

Uh, post #63.

One of the seminal parts of the article:

"The original settlement, which dates from the 10th and 9th centuries B.C., is also a new discovery"

Thank you.

Mike

cmac2012 · #74 03-16-2006, 01:49 AM

OK, MikeMover, lion of historical veracity, who was living on that land in the 12th and 13th century BC? Who was living on your land, on your turf, in 1518?

The Jews lived there long ago. Stop the presses!! This changes everything!! My God, how could I have been so blind?!

mikemover · #75 03-16-2006, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

You are certain Jews predate Palestinians how?

A Cliff's Notes-style highlighting of Israel's history:

1. Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.

2. Arab refugees began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E, the Jews had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.

4.The only Arab domination since the conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more than 22 years.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 hundred times in Bible. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.

9. Arab and Jewish refugees: Arabs were not driven out of their homes. Following the UN decision on Partition in 1948, the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders, promising to purge the land of Jews. They argued that an "Arab presence" would only get in the way of the planned devastation. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.

10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees absorbed by Israel from Arab countries is estimated to be the same.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples'lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.

13. The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.

14. The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the state of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank and autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied their police and security forces with weapons.

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Jewish grave markers were used to build public urinals in occupied Jerusalem. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.

16. The U.N. record on Israel and the Arabs of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel -- notwithstanding the fact that the Arabs refused to participate in the 15 nation United Nations Commission of Palestine which recommended partition in 1948 and sought immediately to undo its work by force of arms.

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.

18. The U.N. was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians between 1948 and 1967.

19. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives between 1948 and 1967.

20. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall between 1948 and 1967.