What rights have YOU lost? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

waybomb · #1 09-21-2006, 07:28 PM

What rights, guaranteed by the US Constitution, and its ammendments, have YOU lost?

BENZ-LGB · #2 09-21-2006, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waybomb

What rights, guaranteed by the US Constitution, and its ammendments, have YOU lost?

And are you going somewhere with this?

waybomb · #3 09-21-2006, 07:42 PM

Yup, I want to know.

I keep hearing about all these lost rights, but I haven't lost any. I don't know anybody that's lost any, either.

Maybe I am wrong and have lost a right or two, and don't know it.

Ignorance is no excuse when it comes to law.

I do not want to learn who the proverbial "Bubba" is when I get sent to prison for exercising I right I thought had, but did not.

BOMC · #4 09-21-2006, 07:49 PM

well, if you think about it collectively, as a popultaion we are gaining rights everyday. not new ones but just more of the same ones. for example, with illegal immigrants, each is afforded the rights granted citizens and we have more illegals every day.

waybomb · #5 09-21-2006, 08:33 PM

I really need to know about these rights I've lost. Anybody?

Hatterasguy · #6 09-21-2006, 08:55 PM

Don't think I have lost any, lets see:
Can buy a gun easy check, can say F Bush, double check looks good to me.

Brian Carlton · #7 09-22-2006, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waybomb

What rights, guaranteed by the US Constitution, and its ammendments, have YOU lost?

Fred, this is a very loaded question.

Most of us (all?) have not personally been involved with the loss of rights guaranteed by the Constitution. It's a well known fact, however, that American citizens have been held without charges because the government was suspicious of their intent or activities and chose to bring out the "terrorist" label.

The rights of these people were absolutely violated.

There are American citizens that have had wiretaps placed upon their phones due to the capabilities of the Patriot Act. No court order was required.

The rights of these people were absolutely violated.

So, the question I have for you is whether the fact that other people, who you may not know personally, can have their Constitutional rights violated by the government and that such behavior is acceptable to you? Your comments seem to indicate that you're OK with it.

Becasue, if this is the situation, it would be quite simple for me to drop a dime and let the Feds know that I observed Fred Konchan constructing a bomb in his garage and I suspect the he's planning to put it on his high powered boat and ram it into a building full of people.

I guarantee you that your rights will be violated within 24 hours of my telephone call. I can be quite convincing.

Do you honestly believe that the government would see through my story and refrain from doing a cavity search on you because you're honestly not a terrorist?

300EVIL · #8 09-22-2006, 02:28 PM

I sure did feel like a criminal about 2 months ago when I got pulled over for my "LEGAL" tinted windows. The cop made me assume the position and patted down my genitals. (Bet he enjoyed that!) Then he searched my hole car, knocking on body panels and asking me if I had any drugs in the air filter. He dumped out all the contents of my briefcase and looked at all my documents. He was looking under my car with mirrors and a flashlight. All in all wasting more than an hour of my time on the side of the road.

Of course he came up with NOTHING! Well, he did find a leaky pen wrapped in tin foil in which he was so proud to show me as if it was some kind of drug parafanilia. I told him "OOO... You got me now! Thats my crack pipe!"

I don't think he liked my humor. Anyway, I was very cooperative and he sent me on my way. "Just doing my job" Feels a lot like harassment.

That's just one of my stories. The police have been f@$^ing with me for years. I must look like some badass gangsta criminal or something hiding under my clean cut appearance and no tattoos or piercings.

450slcguy · #9 09-22-2006, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 300EVIL

I sure did feel like a criminal about 2 months ago when I got pulled over for my "LEGAL" tinted windows. The cop made me assume the position and patted down my genitals. (Bet he enjoyed that!) Then he searched my hole car, knocking on body panels and asking me if I had any drugs in the air filter. He dumped out all the contents of my briefcase and looked at all my documents. He was looking under my car with mirrors and a flashlight. All in all wasting more than an hour of my time on the side of the road.

Of course he came up with NOTHING! Well, he did find a leaky pen wrapped in tin foil in which he was so proud to show me as if it was some kind of drug parafanilia. I told him "OOO... You got me now! Thats my crack pipe!"

I don't think he liked my humor. Anyway, I was very cooperative and he sent me on my way. "Just doing my job" Feels a lot like harassment.

That's just one of my stories. The police have been f@$^ing with me for years. I must look like some badass gangsta criminal or something hiding under my clean cut appearance and no tattoos or piercings.

That story is repeated 100's maybe 1000's of times a day in this "free country". It's called abuse of power and illegal search. That's the result when your constitutional rights are subjected to "probable cause" abuses which many times amounts to nothing more than the officer doesn't approve of your appearance, age, gender,race, the time of day, random reasoning, ect.....

I can agree with the principle in which the law was intended, but all to often there is no reason other than unjustified suspicions based personal opinions, not reasonable evidence.

In your case what was the probable cause to search your vehicle? Are tinted windows probable cause enough to suspect a crime is/has been commited and therfore search you and your vehicle? How can this be justified as reasonable? What would happen if you lodged a complaint or lawsuit citing the officer for abuse of your civil liberties?

I know there some people who feel if you have nothing to hide why question it. There are other people who would say that's disrespect for the law. I say whatever happened to protecting and respecting your right as a citizen and tax payer in this country. when no crime has been commited or cause to suspect that one has been.

BENZ-LGB · #10 09-22-2006, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 300EVIL

I sure did feel like a criminal about 2 months ago when I got pulled over for my "LEGAL" tinted windows. The cop made me assume the position and patted down my genitals. (Bet he enjoyed that!) Then he searched my hole car, knocking on body panels and asking me if I had any drugs in the air filter. He dumped out all the contents of my briefcase and looked at all my documents. He was looking under my car with mirrors and a flashlight. All in all wasting more than an hour of my time on the side of the road.

Of course he came up with NOTHING! Well, he did find a leaky pen wrapped in tin foil in which he was so proud to show me as if it was some kind of drug parafanilia. I told him "OOO... You got me now! Thats my crack pipe!"

I don't think he liked my humor. Anyway, I was very cooperative and he sent me on my way. "Just doing my job" Feels a lot like harassment.

That's just one of my stories. The police have been f@$^ing with me for years. I must look like some badass gangsta criminal or something hiding under my clean cut appearance and no tattoos or piercings.

I am going to go on a limb here and call BS on your story.

I just don't believe it.

I am Hispanic. My wife is Hispanic, My kids are Hispanic. My parents are Hispanic. My wife's family are Hispanic. You get the point.

We have all driven Chevys, Fords and other not so nice cars.

Not once, not once...I repat myself NOT ONCE in all the cumulative years of driving that my family and my wife's family have done in California have we ever been stopped by a cop or cops and subjected to the kind of treatment you describe.

Yours sounds like a made-up story.

Sorry, but I have to call BS.

300EVIL · #11 09-23-2006, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENZ-LGB

I am going to go on a limb here and call BS on your story.

I just don't believe it.

I am Hispanic. My wife is Hispanic, My kids are Hispanic. My parents are Hispanic. My wife's family are Hispanic. You get the point.

We have all driven Chevys, Fords and other not so nice cars.

Not once, not once...I repat myself NOT ONCE in all the cumulative years of driving that my family and my wife's family have done in California have we ever been stopped by a cop or cops and subjected to the kind of treatment you describe.

Yours sounds like a made-up story.

Sorry, but I have to call BS.

I'm sorry you feel that way.... Why would I have a reason to lie? Just because you have had better luck with cops than I do doesn't justify your reasoning. I'm not saying all cops are jerks however, most of the cops I have met are. Maybe it's because I'm too nice and they think I'm trying to hide something.... I don't know.

BENZ-LGB · #12 09-23-2006, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 300EVIL

I'm sorry you feel that way.... Why would I have a reason to lie? Just because you have had better luck with cops than I do doesn't justify your reasoning. I'm not saying all cops are jerks however, most of the cops I have met are. Maybe it's because I'm too nice and they think I'm trying to hide something.... I don't know.

I don't know why you'd say that.

Your story doesn't ring true.

Sorry.

waybomb · #13 09-22-2006, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Carlton

Fred, this is a very loaded question.
It's a well known fact, however, that American citizens have been held without charges because the government was suspicious of their intent or activities and chose to bring out the "terrorist" label.

The rights of these people were absolutely violated.

There are American citizens that have had wiretaps placed upon their phones due to the capabilities of the Patriot Act. No court order was required.

The rights of these people were absolutely violated.

So, the question I have for you is whether the fact that other people, who you may not know personally, can have their Constitutional rights violated by the government and that such behavior is acceptable to you? Your comments seem to indicate that you're OK with it.

Because, if this is the situation, it would be quite simple for me to drop a dime and let the Feds know that I observed Fred Konchan constructing a bomb in his garage and I suspect the he's planning to put it on his high powered boat and ram it into a building full of people.

I guarantee you that your rights will be violated within 24 hours of my telephone call. I can be quite convincing.

Do you honestly believe that the government would see through my story and refrain from doing a cavity search on you because you're honestly not a terrorist?

I guess my position is the Constitution was crafted way too many years ago for me to even consider the relevance of those times. Likewise, it appears the crafters knew they could not possibly know what the future had in store for the country hundreds of years later. They ceratinly had no incling there would be a threat such as the terrorists are providing. The way I read the Constitution, and the way the government was set up, the Constitution was written to gel the country with a set of guidelines, with those guidelines then being interpreted by the courts and the other two branches of government.

If in fact US citizens were held without charges (Who?), then I suspect there will be a constitutional law suit filed (probably not the correct legal mumbo-jumbo), and hoping the Supreme Court will either take the case or not, and then interpret whatever sentence or group of sentences, in the Constitution is challenged. I do believe that powers may over-step their bounds; after all, they are human. But that is why there are courts. Criminal and Tort.

Pre Bush times, Bush times, and post Bush times all have/will human beings doing dumb things, constitution or not. Nobody can tell me otherwise. Democrats in charge, Republicans in charge, a mixture of the two, and maybe even third parties, but all will preside over human beings that make mistakes, or, do dumb things on purpose. Whatever. But again, that's what the courts are for.

My point is - all I seem to hear about is how our rights are being eroded.

Most of my life, I have been racing, and have been in management. In both cases, if a specific item is not detailed in the rule book, union contract, or labor law, than it is fair game.

An example - back when Richard Petty was racing, there was a rule about fuel tank size. There was NOT a rule on fuel line size. So, he had the proper size fuel tank, but he installed huge fuel lines, giving him an advantage. Of course, that was discovered in tech, and a new rule was enacted. He complied, but did not lose the race because he broke no rules. (the other racers all felt cheated, but they were not - there was no rule to cheat on) So, he complied by using the proper size fuel line, running the shortest distance from the fuel tank to the carburetor. But he ran two lines. One to the roll cage (something like 2" ID, probably holding an extra 10 gallons of fuel), and the other from the roll cage to the carburetor. The lines were the shortest they could be. He again won the race, and again discovered in tech, and then modified it again to fit the new rule. Somewhere in there, he made his car a 15/16 sized replica of the original. Again, no specific rule, but that is why you now see templates being used to check body dimensions. If you haven't guessed - I have a soft spot for Richard. He clearly understood rules and laws. The terrosists are somewhat like him, thus, new laws need to be made.

Not sure if I am making my point clear.

This is all my own opinion.

I see no rights specifically saying that as an American, I do NOT have to carry an ID. So, a new rule can be made to do so. AND, even if the Constitution specifically stated that we were exempt from carrying IDs, and Congress passes a law saying we now have to carry an ID, the law MAY be unconstitutional, but it is still law until challenged in court where it may be affirmed or declared unconstitutional. YOU may believe the law to be unconstitutional, but YOU are not the government. YOU do have the right to challenge the law. People do it every day. By the thousands.

The Patriot Act states wire taps are permissible. Until the courts say otherwise, it is permissible. Let due process run its course. Nobody's rights were violated until the law has been struck down, and then only after the law has been struck down.

As for my boat, I would be dumbfounded how anybody could accuse me of such a thing, but, if Homeland Security want to detain and question me, inspect my boat, etc, so be it. Would I feel violated? Maybe, maybe not. It has never happened to me, so I won't know till you call them up and place false blame. I would not like the cavity search, that I am certan. Of course, if I could prove in court you were doing this just to damage me, then I would be awarded damages by the court. BUT, you still had the ability to put the thing in motion, even if your actions were illegal.

Did I feel violated at sobriety check points - hell no. Glad they did it. Helps keep me from drinking too much Casta Passion tequila and possibly hurting/killing somebody. There should be more check points.

As far as I am concerned, all my rights are intact right now. And getting stronger by the day. The more this government does to curtail terrorist and criminal behavior, the stronger my ability to exercise my right to peace and liberty become.

If a new law says I can't run my boat over 100 MPH, then I will get busted, but it was not within my right at that time to go over 100 MPH. It may have been legal in the past, but not after the new law was passed. In the past, no law stated I can or can not go over 100, so I interpret the oclusion as I can go over 100MPH. Even if the there was no law about going over 100MPH, a law enforcement agent could bust me and arrest me. BUT, in both cases, I DO have a right to challenge the ticket or the law in court.

Anybody complaining of losing their rights should go to court. Prove you have lost a CURRENT right, win your case, and get whatever right back that was taken from you. Do something about it if it bothers you so much. But certainly stop whining about it. This is America - go to court!

waybomb · #14 09-22-2006, 10:43 PM

300EVIL

My kid has friends like you. Like his friends, my kid has tinted windows, huge JL subwoofers, an amp that needs a size "0" wire going to it, etc. He's lowered the car, but no goofy wing or fart can. He has fun with his car when it is appropriate and in a safe place, like at sanctioned meets.

His friends are always getting busted. My kid does not. The cops here all know my kid hangs around with the ricers. But my kid is respectful, does not say underhanded dumb things to infuriate and test the cops, and is careful not to get caught. He is diplomatic. His friends on the other hand, are always getting in trouble because they are always challenging the cops.

His friends just don't get it. They complain to me about the trouble they get in, but do not follow my kid's example. They continually do things that force the cops to react. My kid's friends all think the cops are jerks and are cops just to pick on 18 year old ricers.

Do you fit into that category? Before you answer, think about it real hard.

peragro · #15 09-23-2006, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waybomb

I guess my position is the Constitution was crafted way too many years ago for me to even consider the relevance of those times. Likewise, it appears the crafters knew they could not possibly know what the future had in store for the country hundreds of years later.

Fred,

I think you've ignored that the crafters of the Constitution were very apt students of human nature which doesn't really seem to change. As a result they crafted a government with various checks and balances that was able to deal with new things as they occured.

Regarding your original question. Would this be an accurate re-phrasing of what your question:

What rights have you lost under GWB that you had before he was elected?

Concerning wire taps of "your" phone. Is there a difference between wire tapping the actual phone of an American and tapping the phone line going to a suspected source in another country?