We may be over it here, but our British and Australian friends, in internet forums and magazines, use the word "Jap" and "our little yellow friends" with a very casual manner, they seem to see nothing wrong with it.

I was pretty shocked. It sounds like a perjorative to me.

__________________
1991 560 SEC AMG, 199k <---- 300 hp 10:1 ECE euro HV ...

1995 E 420, 170k "The Red Plum" (sold)

2015 BMW 535i xdrive awd Stage 1 DINAN, 6k, <----364 hp

1967 Mercury Cougar, 49k

2013 Jaguar XF, 20k <----340 hp Supercharged, All Wheel Drive (sold)

I have never said that the Japanese were/are lilywhite, I am aware of their 20th century history. Suginami voiced an opinion I disagreed with it and brought in the nukes as an example why there should be no love lost between the two nations.
My wife isn’t much concerned about my online escapades or with my view of the world, she is apolitical just like a lot of her compatriots. Appeasing me, when it comes to political discussions, is the least of her worries.
I don’t hate America, I find its foreign policy opportunistic, imperialistic and predatory all wrapped into a patronizing “we will save you from tyranny” propaganda (in exchange we will install a puppet regime that will help us exploit your natural resources and turn your country into a dumping ground for American made “not so” goods, we will even give you foreign aid but you can only use it to purchase goods and services form us). Some people around here, whether it is stemming from ignorance or arrogance, continue the chest beating and backslapping as if it is something to be proud of.
Conversely, just say the truth and be done with it, "we want what you have and if you don’t give it to us we will take it by force". Don' bask in the imagined glow of the savior of the world. Your commander in chief is an almost illiterate moron who is so wrapped up in his religious fantasy and self importance that he became an embarrassment to his country and a tragedy for another.
"Tribal sovereignty means that; it's sovereign. I mean, you're a — you've been given sovereignty, and you're viewed as a sovereign entity. And therefore the relationship between the federal government and tribes is one between sovereign entities." —President Bush, Washington, D.C., Aug. 6, 2004

As to the other comment, you took a swipe at Holland and at the Dutch for no reason other than trying to goat vronsky.
Your contribution as a nation to the world's cultural heritage is disputable, the history is much worse when it comes to discrimination and genocide; the Europeans had the best to learn from. Slavery in Europe was abolished over a thousand years ago, no native population was eradicated (along with almost an entire animal species just so that whoever wasn’t killed surely will starve to death).
You can never possibly understand what it means to protect one’s heritage, history and culture, yours is rather diluted. I know exactly who my ancestors were, where they came from, why and what they did to survive. I can look back 100, 500, 1000 years and the names and actions of my forefathers make me proud. The same can not be said about any of you, for what you see when you open your history book is extermination, bondage and institutionalized racism. So before you complain about Europe think of the "redskins" and the slave masters. Don’t have to look too far, just a few generations.
“The Marshall Plan aid was mostly used for the purchase of goods from the United States.
Of the some $13 billion allotted by mid-1951, $3.4 billion had been spent on imports of raw materials and semi-manufactured products; $3.2 billion on food, feed, and fertilizer; $1.9 billion on machines, vehicles, and equipment; and $1.6 billion on fuel.[16]
.
.
The early students of the Marshall Plan saw it as an unmitigated success of American generosity. Criticism of the Marshall Plan, however, became prominent among historians of the revisionist school, such as Walter LaFeber, during the 1960s and 1970s. They argued that the plan was American economic imperialism, and that it was an attempt to gain control over Western Europe just as the Soviets controlled Eastern Europe. Far from generosity, the plan was the result of the United States' geopolitical goals.
.
.
Other historians emphasize the benefits of the plan to U.S. industry. One result of the destruction in Europe as a result of two world wars was that U.S. farming and industry had world superiority. American private enterprise thus could only gain financially from opening new markets and free trade policies.”

The cold war has ended because communism is not a viable economic system.
You didn’t end it, the Hungarians opened the Austrian border to let all the East Germans out, that was the beginning of the end.

As to the involvement in the Yugoslav problem, again it wasn’t the US’ business, if anything the Bosnians were blocked from arming themselves so the Serbians had unopposed access initially, therefore the losses were higher than otherwise would have been. On the other hand, I want to see your reaction when the Mexicans start throwing hand grenades into discos and police station in California stating that it really belongs to them because there are enough of them around now. Exactly the tactics used by the KLA to provoke the Serbs.
One observes from afar another one lives it daily.
Without question, understanding the language will give me much greater insight. I am rather frustrated at the moment not being able to speak it.
I was going to suggest that Suginami lived here so he is fully aware that the "salarymen" don’t really have much saying in whether they will go drinking after work or not, therefore it is not a “bodies go for a cold one and shoot the breeze after work” affair but rather an obligation. They would never insult a foreigner knowing that they have to work with him for the foreseeable future. And people behave the same way in most other societies too, I suspect.
Of course it is so much more humane to kill indiscriminately with carpet bombing, napalm and laser guided missiles, or nukes, because if we don’t see our victims’ blood and can only observe them being blown into pieces from a computer screen then it really doesn’t hurt, does it?
I am not defending the Japanese just point out that atrocities were committed on both sides, the US going in a much more industrialized fashion about it.
Care to explain how you got to that conclusion?

Alex

I think that you meant the word "goad" not goat. I merely provided an illustration that while continually critical of U.S. culture, lifestyle, and internal and external policy, our Dutch friend comes from a country whose government continually exhibits, to put it charitably, questionable judgment in crafting and implementing its own internal and external policies. While Vronsky is essentially a troll and erstwhile provacateur, he does seem able to present a point of view without resorting to personal name-calling. This may be a point that is lost to you, as it apparently is to me. In any event, I'm sure that Dutch citizenry world-wide have great appreciation of your vigorous defense of their country.

I must confess that I am quite jealous of your ability to trace your lineage, as I can only trace my lineage back approximately 350 years. I am hopeful that you have carefully recorded your family history for your heirs, given that your ex-patriate status will make their own research somewhat difficult.

As to the U.S. history regarding slavery, you may be intrigued to learn that we settled that issue a few years ago as the consequence of a dispute that we refer to internally as "The Civil War". Genocide? Apparently a few 20th Century eastern European leaders were insufficiently offended by this concept.

dacia,

you make some good points, but you have a totally anti us slant. where else would the western europeans been able to buy the things they needed?

if you had read a little more us history you would be perhaps able to see it from another perspective.

often the blade can cut both ways. things are rarely ever totally simple in real life.

tom w

__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

Oh Tom, come on now: Everyone around the world knows that the only things Americans are good for is driving their 4x4 pickup trucks (adorned with the Confederate flag of course) in a great big circle around Texas, then getting all grouchy and murderous when the "low fuel" light comes on.

I guess I'm showing off my insular and provincial attitude. Mea culpa. Unfortunately, I was born to a country showered with so many advantages and benefits that I never had the opportunity to gain the cosmopolitan perspective afforded by fleeing a country in the dead of night with just the shirt on my back.

Dacia if I was thin skinned I may almost be insluted by how you insult and trash the USA.

Ahh Europeans, yeah lets be like them and fight more wars! I mean until 1945 they were very good at killing eachother. Really we need to learn from the best.

__________________
2016 Corvette Stingray 2LT
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

What of it? You speak as tho it is something that only we do. It is something everybody else does. The only difference is the degree to which they do it and how obvious it is to others. I used to live in Singapore. They had an agreement to buy water from Malaysia in exchange for electricity and some cash, IIRC. When S disagreed with M on policy, M would want to shut of the faucets IN SPITE OF A SIGNED CONTRACT. However, M tends to view itself as the big brother trying to keep the little one out of trouble. They have even wanted to increase the price of water RETROACTIVE to when the contract was signed at one point because S refused to toe the line and they said that it was because they sold it too cheaply then. WTF is this? The NFL? S has gone into recycling sewage for drinking water. If this isn't meddling in a sovereign nation, what is? Same dish, different flavor is all. Does M consider itself saintly? Of course. It even has said some harsh words to the effect that the USA uses it's military muscle to push other nations around. However, what they themselves do is not abusive. It is just fine.

The truth? You and most others couldn't handle the truth. Hence the wrap up in all the wonderful notions that they say they are doing. Fact is, our govt, your govt, any govt says much that sounds good, believes in few and does even fewer, if any. Nobody really speaks the truth, do they? Why not listen to Hussien? He said Kuwait was a province of Iraq so all he was doing was reclaiming what was his and not trying to grab it's oil. You believe that? Take off your rose colored glasses and look at your own govt and tell me it is perfect. It too does all sorts of dirty stuff wrapped up in some high falutin aim.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

Just whose natural resources have we plundered? Were our advirsaries from WW2 subjected to harsh post war retribution? Did we keep Kuwait's oil fields? Have we stolen Iraq's resources? Just because the US has the balls to challenge tyranical dictators does not mean it's not justified.

Perhaps you think Nazi Germany was a good thing? Maybe you think that Communism should have gone unchallenged? If all was left up to Europe they would be speaking German or Russian by now.

And what is so bad about giving 10's of billions of dollars a year in financial aid in exchange for some business contracts? Who else would you hire, the French?

Let me remind you that a large amount of the technological advancement in the last fifty years originated here in the US, not Europe, Asia, or the Middle East.

I'm not sure where your from, but please enlighten me as to what your country has accomplished in the world in the last fifty years that makes you think your morally superior to the US. Sure we make some mistakes, but at least we try, more than I can say for Europe and Asia.

__________________
Question Authority before it Questions you.

If you are going to talk morality, EVERY country will have dirty hands if you could get an indifferent judge from another planet. Problem with morality is that it depends on who is judging. Every country, but this one, seems to consider that others are morally corrupt while they have no faults. They will comment on how so and so should be doing this or not doing that. They just seem blind to the fact that while they don't do the exact same thing, they are doing something along the same line. IOW, I condemn someone for stealing Yen but I'm ok because I am stealing Euros.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

Bosnia
Somalia
Djibouti
Sierra Leone
Ethiopia
Iraq
Zimbabwe
Zambia
ect
ect
ect

and I am still in the present, I think that the country that does NOTHING ins immoral.

...I still 'cherish' the general aspects of "The Morgenthau Plan"...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Morgenthau+Plan

__________________

ahhhh yes, but if we had done that would you have a benz to drive? that is any better than a kia?

tom w

__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

The country that does nothing immoral does not exist

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

I may not have made this clear enough ... 'cherish' was meant zynical ...a few quotations from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgenthau_Plan


Office of Strategic Services (OSS):
On December 11, OSS operative William Donovan sent Roosevelt a telegraph message from Bern, warning him of the consequences that the knowledge of the Morgenthau plan had had on German resistance; by showing them that the enemy planned the enslavement of Germany it had welded together ordinary Germans and the regime; the Germans continue to fight because they are convinced that defeat will bring nothing but oppression and exploitation. [12] The message was a translation of a recent article in the Neue Zürcher Zeitung:

The conviction that Germany had nothing to expect from defeat but oppression and exploitation still prevails, and that accounts for the fact that the Germans continue to fight. It is not a question of a regime, but of the homeland itself, and to save that, every German is bound to obey the call, whether he be Nazi or member of the opposition.

On March 20, 1945 President Roosevelt was warned that the JCS 1067 was not workable: it would let the Germans "stew in their own juice". Roosevelt's response was "Let them have soup kitchens! Let their economy sink!". Asked if he wanted the German people to starve, he replied, "Why not?".[16]

On May 10, 1945 Truman signed the JCS 1067. Morgenthau told his staff that it was a big day for the Treasury, and that he hoped that "someone doesn't recognize it as the Morgenthau Plan."[17]


In 1947 the U.S. Congress warned that the continuation of the present policies:

…can only mean one of two things, (a) That a considerable part of the German population must be "liquidated" through diseases, malnutrition, and slow starvation for a period of years to come, with the resultant dangers to the rest of Europe from pestilence and the spread of plagues that know no boundaries; or (b) the continuation both of large occupying forces to hold down "unrest" and the affording of relief mainly drawn from the United States to prevent actual starvation.[20]

Attached Thumbnails

 

__________________

Same source as above: In view of the continued poverty and famine in Europe, and with the onset of the Cold War which made it important not to lose all of Germany to the communists, it was apparent by 1947 that a change of policy was required.

The change was heralded by Restatement of Policy on Germany, a famous speech by James F. Byrnes, then United States Secretary of State, held in Stuttgart on September 6, 1946. Also known as the "Speech of hope" it set the tone of future U.S. policy as it repudiated the Morgenthau Plan economic policies and with its message of change to a policy of economic reconstruction gave the Germans hope for the future. Herbert Hoover's situation reports from 1947, as well as A Report on Germany also served to help change occupation policy.

The Western powers worst fear by now was that the poverty and hunger would drive the Germans to Communism. General Lucius Clay stated "There is no choice between being a communist on 1,500 calories a day and a believer in democracy on a thousand".

The most notable example of this change of policy was a plan established by U.S. Secretary of State George Marshall, the "European Recovery Program", better known as the Marshall Plan, which in the form of loans instead of the free aid received by other recipients eventually was extended to also include the newly formed West Germany in 1949.


The Marshall Plan … is not a philanthropic enterprise … It is based on our views of the requirements of American security … This is the only peaceful avenue now open to us which may answer the communist challenge to our way of life and our national security." (Allen W. Dulles, The Marshall Plan) [4]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

International relations is all about pragmatic self-interest. It is not about warm and fuzzy goodness. This is why Marines are not in Darfur. What is in it for us?

B