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Asbestos and the WTC
A friend sent me this picture tonight. I should disclose that I'm certified to identify, quantify and remove asbestos. When I have the oppurtunity I choose to leave it and manage it in place. It really is a wonderful substance with huge potential benefit to mankind and some down sides; like anything really. Not just my personal opinion but New England Journal of Medicine agrees with me: Quote:
My main questions: Would asbestos have helped slow the collapse and thus saved more lives? Was it removed to satisfy some, at the time, current scare-fest put on by the media, politicians and trial lawyers? I can't help think of carbon credits...
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-livin' in the terminally flippant zone |
#2
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While I do agree that from a technological point of view at THAT time, asbestos may have, and probably was the right choice -- I have to point out that my grandfather died from mesophelioma -- and today I feel there are better choices. Those choices may cost more money (and they do) but the provide the same protection. In the end it all comes down to the dollar.
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I never heard about any deliberate efforts to limit or remove asbestos fireproofing from the WTC. Is this another conspiracy theory?
As I understand it - Unlike traditional 'old-school' skyscraper construction, such as the Empire State Building, the Twin-Towers of the WTC were built from a novel and lightweight design. The Twin-Towers used an outer steel skin, tied to a central steel core by lightweight steel trusses. The interior structural steel was protected by spray-on fireproofing (probably asbestos) and drywall. As built, the Twin-Towers were more than adequately strong for almost any occurence, except for the after-effects of an airliner collision. The catastrophic effects at the site of of the airliner impacts shattered the drywall, and blew away much of the spray-on fireproofing, exposing the steel to the resulting fire. Eventually, failure at the connections of the superheated trusses, broke the ties between the outer skin and the inner core, allowing the outer skin to buckle under the weight of the upper floors, resulting in the Twin-Towers collapse. Near the end of WW II, the Empire State Building survived the impact of a twin-engine B25 bomber on the 78th floor. I sometimes wonder if the Twin-Towers had been built with the massive construction and steel framework of the old-time skyscrapers, would they still be standing? Happy Motoring, Mark
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DrDKW Last edited by Mark DiSilvestro; 06-22-2007 at 09:11 AM. |
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Quote:
I do know that low exposure to fibers does not adversely effect a person's risk of lung cancers. This is not to say that there weren't some outrageous exposures in various industries, such as mining asbestos, that were harmful; especially to those that smoked (and who didn't back then?). I also know that there's not really a good substitute for many applications that works as well, as efficiently and as cheaply as did asbestos. As far as conspiracy theories... No I'm not advocating or trying to start another one. The picture just made me start thinking about stupid overreactions fueled by unsubstantiated fear and the consequences they have. There are so many; Alar, breast implants, DDT, Eugenics, asbestos, AGW, killer mold, etc... I'll leave the conspiracy theories up to ugly porcine former morning show hosts and, evidently, 35% of the Democratic party. Great article, BTW, on asbestos here
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-livin' in the terminally flippant zone |
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The spray-on fireproofing might have been the stuff that could be 'sneezed' off. Or, with the way things often work in the modern world, perhaps the stuff wasn't properly applied. Or in this case, there simply wasn't a reliable way to protect the steel from the effects of a catastrophic airliner impact. In any event, according to one of the original architects interveiwed for a PBS Frontline documentary on the WTC, the buildings were simply not designed to survive the type of disaster that occured on 9-11.
Happy Motoring, Mark
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DrDKW |
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Quote:
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-livin' in the terminally flippant zone |
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Oh boy. Asbestos. Where to begin.
btw, Gotta--its mesothelioma. My dad worked in a Johns Manville (Jersey) asbestos shingle factory in the '50s during the summers in college. Never been sick a day in his life. Wife represents successor of JM. I represent ship workers than were exposed on mainly boiler room ops. Lot of angles. |
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Pretty tasteless advertisement.
Sort of like showing a dead raped woman in an ad for mace spray..... ..
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'87 924S '81 280SEL Sold -> 81 300SD - 93 300E w/ 3.2 85 300D- 79 300SD 82 300CD 83 300CD - CA 87 190E 5 spd 87 Porsche 924S "..I'll take a simple "C" to "G" and feel brand new about it..." |
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It was an ad from the 1970's.
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-livin' in the terminally flippant zone |
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I suspect this ad was composed many years before 9-11, possibly during the '70s, and is actually touting the use of asbestos in the Twin-Towers. Possibly, the "fire alarm" mentioned refers to a fire drill or evacuation following a small fire not caused by a terroricst act.
Happy Motoring, Mark
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DrDKW |
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Quote:
I also heard, I believe, that the asbestos may have been applied too lightly by the insulation contractor and the parties responsible for quality control may have received something to not notice. I cannot remember the source of this idea but that is in my memory banks. Reinforced concrete seems the best solution in my mind. The huge structure in Dubais is being constructed of it, IIRC. I suspect height may be limited by RC due to the weight of the building material. In any case a limit of this nature may be a good thing. I don't see how you can make a really tall building safe for people to live in using the current exiting methods specified by code....stairs. A person of some age or other limitation in mobility simply cannot be expected to navigate 200 floors of stairs (picking a number out of the sky). No pun intended....originally. Tom W
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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC] ..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis. |
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Quote:
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-livin' in the terminally flippant zone |
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Just for the record the Empire State Building was hit by a B25 bomber that got turned around in thick fog. The B25 is a toy compared to what hit the WTC's. The B25 isn't that large and doesn't contain nearly as much fuel, it was also probably flying at 150mph, or less...
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1999 SL500 1969 280SE 2023 Ram 1500 2007 Tiara 3200 |
#14
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the twenty nine oto is a huge plane.
tom w
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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC] ..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis. |
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True but a B29 did not hit the empire state building AFAIK.
B29>B25 BIG difference!
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1999 SL500 1969 280SE 2023 Ram 1500 2007 Tiara 3200 |
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