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  #1  
Old 10-18-2007, 07:26 AM
t walgamuth's Avatar
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Torture

I know this has been discussed before, but the president and his staff is on the airways again saying that we don't torture but not defining what torture is.

I can't help but think when I hear of simulated drowning and water boarding of the sadistic experiments that the Germans performed on Jews to discover how far they could go toward killing someone and still revive them. They used similar methods including cold. Of course many of the Jews died in the experiments.

I discussed this with some of the fellows that I eat lunch with the other day and one of them, who is a VietNam vet, told of the practice of taking two prisoners up in a Chopper and throwing one out so the other would talk.

I come down on the side of following the Geneva convention myself. I want us to be admirable in our actions and I want them to know they will be treated humanely so that they won't fear being taken prisoner. Plus the information gotten from torture is not reliable. They will say whatever they think you want to hear if you are pulling their fingernails off just to get you to stop.

Tom W

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  #2  
Old 10-18-2007, 07:31 AM
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What is torture?

Is torture ever justified?

To me, torture is when I can't get what I want. Like unable to avoid pain or inhibiting my freedom. The spectrum is wide but that's where it starts. For me.

The degree to which torture is allowed or condoned or is culturally acceptable is directly related to it's definition.

B
  #3  
Old 10-18-2007, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t walgamuth View Post
I come down on the side of following the Geneva convention myself. I want us to be admirable in our actions and I want them to know they will be treated humanely so that they won't fear being taken prisoner. Plus the information gotten from torture is not reliable. They will say whatever they think you want to hear if you are pulling their fingernails off just to get you to stop.

Tom W
Most of the captives are not due to surrender people I know in the "talkin to" game tell me that torture is largely ineffective for good information.
  #4  
Old 10-18-2007, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
Most of the captives are not due to surrender people I know in the "talkin to" game tell me that torture is largely ineffective for good information.
It depends on what you mean by torture.
  #5  
Old 10-18-2007, 07:37 AM
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Torture was not just the realm of the Germans, everyone has done it throughout history and continue doing so with impunity and justificiation and of course, denial of the very act as well.
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  #6  
Old 10-18-2007, 07:38 AM
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Listening to Roger Whittaker's greatest hits,Robert Goulet or any of Bush's "speaches".
  #7  
Old 10-18-2007, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
It depends on what you mean by torture.
It was a lame attempt on my part not to discuss that any more than I had to.
  #8  
Old 10-18-2007, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carleton Hughes View Post
Listening to Roger Whittaker's greatest hits,Robert Goulet or any of Bush's "speaches".


Ohhhhh nooo not the Ludwig Van.
  #9  
Old 10-18-2007, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
It was a lame attempt on my part not to discuss that any more than I had to.
I can't help but take the bait. It's comes with being a Jew and twerp, I guess. A twerpish Jew?

Speaking of pork, I underwent the boat handling portion of mandatory boat retraining (abridged version every-3rd year or so, big enchilada every 9 or 10 years). The written part I totally f**ked-up last week -- the rules of the road at sea and river navigation rules (vary by river system and sometimes within a river), terminology, etc. I did very well on the trailering road course last week (comes of having trailered horses before Mrs B & I had kids). I really needed the training -- I hadn't realized how much I'd forgotten.

Anyway, on my way to the launch I stopped at a stop and rob just south of Abbeville heading towards Intracoastal City to buy lunch. I had never stopped at this store before and I rather enjoy checking-out the boudin, which is quite variable.

Comprehensive list here: http://www.boudinlink.com/

'nuther site: http://www.southernboudintrail.com/introduction.shtml


Well, this little no-name place was run by a Chinese family. Now this is cool -- Chinese family that barely speaks English living in the heart of Cajun-French speaking Louisiana, selling their own pork (ish) boudin variant. It was quite good. Lots of organ meet mixed with muscle meat, low on onions, high on cayenne and garlic. Not ricey (surprisingly, to me). Low on grease. Great texture.

Are there Jewish Cajuns? I don't know. Jewish New Orleanians have been there almost since the beginning. I was surprised to learn that there have been Jews in rural Mississippi for many generations. http://www.commarts.com/CA/exhibit/070405/

Intracoastal City, Louisiana
From Wikipedia
Intracoastal City has various port facilities and some permanent residents in Vermilion Parish, Louisiana, 13 miles (21 km) south of Abbeville. It stands on the west bank of the Vermilion River at its junction with the Gulf Intracoastal Waterway. Intracoastal City is located at [show location on an interactive map] 2947′03″N, 9220′22″W1.

Its attractions include heliports, a shrimp docking facility, and dry docks. As it stands on the coast of the Gulf of Mexico somewhat remote from major settlements, it is often used by the National Hurricane Center as a breakpoint for tropical cyclone warnings and watches which affect the bayous of eastern Louisiana but not the west of the state. It also plays a major part in Louisiana's oil and gas industry by supporting offshore personnel, platforms and drilling rigs.


Abbeville
http://www.vermilion.org/abbeville.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbeville,_Louisiana
  #10  
Old 10-18-2007, 09:30 AM
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We might've found out if what we do is torture, but around a week or so ago the Supreme Court refused to hear the case of a German detainee who claimed he was tortured. The government said hearing the case would reveal secrets, so the Court refused to hear the case.
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  #11  
Old 10-18-2007, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
It depends on what you mean by torture.
When asked pointedly whether he had condoned torturing terrorism suspects, the President was heard to say, "I did not have torture with that man." Hey, that's good enough for me!

I no longer aopprove of torture. That's why I finally quit my job and got a new one.
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  #12  
Old 10-18-2007, 10:20 AM
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The real test is what is "torture" some people think that the act of holding a person against their will is torture and it goes up from there.
  #13  
Old 10-18-2007, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Howitzer View Post
The real test is what is "torture" some people think that the act of holding a person against their will is torture and it goes up from there.
It's only the real test if we know exactly what the government is doing, and no one wants to say.
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  #14  
Old 10-18-2007, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by tankdriver View Post
It's only the real test if we know exactly what the government is doing, and no one wants to say.

I don't think much of anything since '03 the ICRC, Red Cross and a zillion other organizations are monitoring the detainees and others with a magnifying glass and can't find a single bruise.

The trick to torture is to not do anything but make the person an informant out of the fear of what could happen if they don't talk or tell the truth. That is why we need to keep it in the arsenal.
  #15  
Old 10-18-2007, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t walgamuth View Post
I know this has been discussed before, but the president and his staff is on the airways again saying that we don't torture but not defining what torture is.

I discussed this with some of the fellows that I eat lunch with the other day and one of them, who is a VietNam vet, told of the practice of taking two prisoners up in a Chopper and throwing one out so the other would talk.

I come down on the side of following the Geneva convention myself. I want us to be admirable in our actions and I want them to know they will be treated humanely so that they won't fear being taken prisoner.

Plus the information gotten from torture is not reliable. They will say whatever they think you want to hear if you are pulling their fingernails off just to get you to stop.
It is our enemies we are talking about. So what? Grind them and feed them to the pigs for all I care.

No problem with that. Makes me think of the movie "Scarface" except that guy was hung from a chopper.

They are not even afraid of dying for their cause. I doubt torture will change that.

It's not ALWAYS reliable. Some of it might be, some might not be. You need to check out the info you get always. However, it is more reliable than no information.

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