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  #136  
Old 11-21-2007, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Dee8go View Post
It seems as though the founding fathers of this country had the right idea. They thought it prudent to keep out of the internal affairs of other countries and to avoid alliances with them. For most of our history getting involved in such things has not worked out too well.
My grandfather thought it was best to be a carpenter. My father thought it best to be a carpenter. Therefore, I too should be a carpenter and so should my son. Things change. What were the circumstances then and what are they now? Would they change their mind if there were brought forward in time to today?

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  #137  
Old 11-21-2007, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Gurkha View Post
a economic stranglehold works wonder and US has all the clout to do so with total impunity.
Sometimes it works. Not always.
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  #138  
Old 11-21-2007, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
The trick has always been determining where the internal affairs of one country end and ours begin, and vice-versa.
Years ago, your business was your business. We could all go about doing what we do and never bump into each other. Today, we are like in a neighborhood. Just because you live on top of the hill and I am at the bottom doesn't mean your dumping of garbage in your yard won't hurt my house resale value. That is why we have HOAs.
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  #139  
Old 11-21-2007, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Chas H View Post
Did Afghanistan pose a threat on Sept 11, 2001?
Afghanistan posed a threat from the moment it allowed Bin laden to train his forces within their territory. The bulk of the people were still present on 9/11 and the gov of Afghanistan was in full accord with that particular for of evangelism.

Because of certain actions and circumstance of which you are doubtlessly aware, Afghanistan is not currently the threat in was on 9/10/2001.
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  #140  
Old 11-21-2007, 08:34 PM
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Sometimes it works. Not always.
I don't think it has ever worked worth a damn. We tried to destroy Cuba with it and over 40 years later, our best hope for change in Cuba remains what it was back then: death of Fearless Leader. No other country was so ompletely bottled-up economically by the USA. It's a dumb strategy in Cuba and it's dumb anywhere else.

The best use fo economic power is empowering the middle class of adversary government through free trade. That actually has worked many times over the past 200 years or so.
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  #141  
Old 11-21-2007, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
Afghanistan posed a threat from the moment it allowed Bin laden to train his forces within their territory. The bulk of the people were still present on 9/11 and the gov of Afghanistan was in full accord with that particular for of evangelism.

Because of certain actions and circumstance of which you are doubtlessly aware, Afghanistan is not currently the threat in was on 9/10/2001.
So that threat was present on Sept 10, 2001-correct?
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  #142  
Old 11-21-2007, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Chas H View Post
So that threat was present on Sept 10, 2001-correct?
Did you happen to read what I wrote?
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  #143  
Old 11-21-2007, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Botnst View Post
Did you happen to read what I wrote?
Of course, that's why I asked for a clarafication. You seem to be saying two different things at once.

"For example, some people think that Iran is a danger to the USA but I have never heard of anybody suggesting that they are meddling within the borders of the 50 states. Same with North Korea and with Pakistan.

Same with Afghanistan on September 10, 2001".
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  #144  
Old 11-21-2007, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Chas H View Post
Of course, that's why I asked for a clarafication. You seem to be saying two different things at once.

"For example, some people think that Iran is a danger to the USA but I have never heard of anybody suggesting that they are meddling within the borders of the 50 states. Same with North Korea and with Pakistan.

Same with Afghanistan on September 10, 2001".
I said exactly what I meant.
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  #145  
Old 11-22-2007, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Emmerich View Post
Who said Vietnam was lost? Someone needs to research what the true goal was, you might find it turned out nicely. Not saying it went as planned, but the big picture goals were met. And it hindsight, again by chance, not staying and occupying is probably a good thing. We would still be playing daddy to those asswipes too cowardly to stand up and defend their own country. In that sense, Iraq is like Vietnam. Or more precisely, the Iraqi people are like the S Vietnamese. Where are the S. Korean types, fighters, willing to stand up and fight?
We were basing our progress on the amount of dead Vietnamese. This inevitably led to a coarsening of the average soldier's feelings about the natives, severing of ears (proof of kill) etc. We were descending into barbarism.

As for the true goal being met (preventing the spread of communism, I guess you mean) all sorts of reasons why that may have happened. First off, the Vietnamese were never likely to become part of China's "spreading communist beast."

In the mid 40s, towards the end of WW2, Ho Chi Minh defended his new alliance with the French by explaining that only that way could they keep the Chinese at bay. He said (roughly): "I would rather sniff French $h!t for 5 years than eat Chinese $h!t for 1,000 years."

The assumption that communism was like an unstoppable virus was flawed. It looked good to the Vietnamese, IMO, because so called western democracy looked like colonial domination to them. Communism offered a much better chance of actual democracy in their view.

As for "asswipes too cowardly to stand up and defend their own country," the portion of the country that eventually prevailed had displayed great courage for a long time against vastly superior foes. The group we tried to prop up as the real face of Vietnam knew that they would be inevitably viewed as puppets of powerful outsiders. Sorta sapped their strength.

Like much of the Iraqi army, they were doing it because it was the best paying gig they could find, IMHO.
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  #146  
Old 11-22-2007, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by aklim View Post
So if we didn't fool around with that situation, would there be consequences too? You seem to think there wouldn't.
Who knows? Mossadeq had mullahs to contend with in his day as well. He was in the midst of all sorts of competing forces.

One of our main concerns was that the Soviets were gaining to much sway. Oh well, they bordered Iran at the time, it is only to be expected that they would have some involvement.

One thing is clear: Mossadeq was the first leader of the first democracy Iran had, he was enormously popular, and people still hold animosity about it.

This photo taken in '79:

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  #147  
Old 11-22-2007, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by cmac2012 View Post
We were basing our progress on the amount of dead Vietnamese. This inevitably led to a coarsening of the average soldier's feelings about the natives, severing of ears (proof of kill) etc. We were descending into barbarism.

First off, the Vietnamese were never likely to become part of China's "spreading communist beast."

The assumption that communism was like an unstoppable virus was flawed.
So a soldier wants a momento of his kill. Isn't it like pilots painting a swastika or jap flag or a bomb on their plane for each successful kill or mission?

Well, there are several countries that DON'T feel the way you do. In fact, it was a great fear of it spreading like a cancer.

Unstoppable, no. Dangerous, yes.
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  #148  
Old 11-22-2007, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by cmac2012 View Post
Who knows? Mossadeq had mullahs to contend with in his day as well. He was in the midst of all sorts of competing forces.

One of our main concerns was that the Soviets were gaining to much sway. Oh well, they bordered Iran at the time, it is only to be expected that they would have some involvement.
Well, good you say that. From your posts, I tend to get the idea that you are alluding to the notion that we went in and made a situation unstable that would be fine if we didn't. Fact is that situations usually are a "Damned if you do and damned if you don't" deal. Sure, we could have left Iran alone. However, what if it had turned out into something we didn't want? It is just like me leaving the wife to paint the house as she wants. Well, if I like it the way she did it, fine. If not, too bad. I should have said or done something.

Seeing the way countries collapse into communism one by one that border the USSR, wouldn't you also wonder if you were next? I would.

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