Turns Out, We Do Torture - Page 13 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Botnst · #**181** 02-11-2008, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things.
The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing / everything is worth war is much worse.
The person who has nothing / everything for which he is willing to fight, nothing / everything which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

John Stuart Mill / RichC

Amazing how transposing one word can make such a difference.

It's amazing how taking the words of a brilliant man and changing them to suit yourself merely serves to belittle one of you but not the other.

Hatterasguy · #**182** 02-11-2008, 12:54 PM

I like it better the first way.

MTI · #**183** 02-11-2008, 02:52 PM

The long version version of the JS Mill quote:

But war, in a good cause, is not the greatest evil which a nation can suffer. War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse. When a people are used as mere human instruments for firing cannon or thrusting bayonets, in the service and for the selfish purposes of a master, such war degrades a people.

A war to protect other human beings against tyrannical injustice – a war to give victory to their own ideas of right and good, and which is their own war, carried on for an honest purpose by their free choice – is often the means of their regeneration. A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. As long as justice and injustice have not terminated their ever-renewing fight for ascendancy in the affairs of mankind, human beings must be willing, when need is, to do battle for the one against the other

emphasis added

Was Mill himself ever a soldier or serve the crown's military?

Botnst · #**184** 02-11-2008, 03:10 PM

Or was he an academic, ... A ...

Diploma Mill?

RichC · #**185** 02-11-2008, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

It's amazing how taking the words of a brilliant man and changing them to suit yourself merely serves to belittle one of you but not the other.

You know as well as I do this quote was used out of context.

The changes I made brought it back to a truer meaning of the origional intent of the author.

Botnst · #**186** 02-11-2008, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

You know as well as I do this quote was used out of context.

The changes I made brought it back to a truer meaning of the origional intent of the author.

Can I borrow your crystal?

RichC · #**187** 02-11-2008, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Can I borrow your crystal?

None of us see the world the same.

Perception is fallible.

PaulC · #**188** 02-11-2008, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Can I borrow your crystal?

Well, wait until he takes a whirl at the Constitution first.

cmac2012 · #**189** 02-11-2008, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

1. Wish we could stop arresting drug users, myself. That would cut down on the folks in jail. So far only Ron Paul has called for a rational change in that particular policy. The Demopublicans are either freaking stupid or cowards on that issue.

2. What goes on in Nigeria stays in Nigeria. Too bad they can't get their ***** together.

3. Good. we need it.

4. No question about damned fools. It's agreeing on who they are where we may find differences. You sanctimonious embrace of blame becomes you.

1. It ain't just drug dealers.

2. Many of Nigeria's problems are their own but we're doing there like we do in S. Arabia: propping up corrupt leaders (with our $$ spent on oil) while the people bear the brunt of the costs of extraction but little of the benefit. Much of the "benefit" comes here. And the world loves us for it.

3. "Need." hmmmph

4. Embrace of blame? I am not innocent. The depth and breadth of my folly is substantial, though not as bad as it once was. Taking responsibility for a problem is the first step of fixing it.

The problem is us, furthermore, it is us, and . . . . it is us. Get used to it.

cmac2012 · #**190** 02-11-2008, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

John Stuart Mill

War IS required sometimes. In our ancestral past, it was necessary quite often, if I'm not mistaken.

We were not threatened by Vietnam except in our fevered imaginations. No one in Iraq came to our land and inflicted harm prior to 'shocking and awful' that I know of. Pre-emptive war could be another term for conquest.

MTI · #**191** 02-11-2008, 06:34 PM

I still have to chuckle about the "Reverse Domino Theory" plan of sowing the seeds of democracy in the region. Of course, this is so much different than what world wide communism was trying to achieve . . .

Botnst · #**192** 02-11-2008, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTI

I still have to chuckle about the "Reverse Domino Theory" plan of sowing the seeds of democracy in the region. Of course, this is so much different than what world wide communism was trying to achieve . . .

Has democratization ever worked?

aklim · #**193** 02-11-2008, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

2. Many of Nigeria's problems are their own but we're doing there like we do in S. Arabia: propping up corrupt leaders (with our $$ spent on oil) while the people bear the brunt of the costs of extraction but little of the benefit. Much of the "benefit" comes here. And the world loves us for it.

The problem is us, furthermore, it is us, and . . . . it is us. Get used to it.

So what's your point? That we are the only ones supporting Saudi Arabia? You sure of that? Only 20% of our oil comes from that region. What about India an China? By their demand the price also goes up and supports Saudi Arabia more. Why aren't you also blaming them for it? Why only the USA? Because we seem to make a bigger splash? WGAS what the world loves us for? When they need us, they will be back with their hand out. When they don't need us, they will spit at us. Par for the course. Same with any other country.

Sure, it is us and only us. Or is that the way you want to see it? Look at your example above. Again it is all us. Nobody else to blame but us. Why, if we were annihilated tomorrow, the world would be a better place, right? Maybe that is what you should root for.

Do we have a part? But of course. Are we the only ones? I think not. Your self loathing thinks so.

aklim · #**194** 02-11-2008, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

We were not threatened by Vietnam except in our fevered imaginations.

No one in Iraq came to our land and inflicted harm prior to 'shocking and awful' that I know of.

Your defination of threaten is what? When they are knocking on your door or when they have already barged in and are in your face? Think the communists were out there for a Sunday picnic?

Who brought it on Iraq? IIRC, Hussein had 10 years of hiding and dodging?

MTI · #**195** 02-11-2008, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

So what's your point? That we are the only ones supporting Saudi Arabia? You sure of that?

When was the last time India or China delivered a $20 billion dollar arms package, including JDAM precision guided bombs, to the House of Saud? Well, it seem we are. . . with the requisite $30B package for Israel . . . so that we still know who's our favorite.