Jesus not a unique suffering Messiah - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

aklim · #1 07-11-2008, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

Christianity, as a revealed religion--meaning truth revealed by God that is otherwise unknowable--- is a very different matter.

You do not believe because you choose not to believe.

How is that different from Islam, Judaism or even Greek Mythology? Don't they also claim that their truth is revealed by their diety?

Belief: confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof. If you don't have the confidence, how do you choose to have confidence in something?

link · #2 07-11-2008, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

You do not believe because you choose not to believe.

Why would that be?

RichC · #3 07-11-2008, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

This whole thread assumes that all religions are man-made attempts to explain the unknown.
Christianity, as a revealed religion--meaning truth revealed by God that is otherwise unknowable--- is a very different matter.
I hope some of you can appreciate the difference, although I know some will ( willful choice) not.
Lack of belief is not often due to a lack of knowledge, or an imperfection of knowledge, but rather a willful choice not to believe. You do not believe because you choose not to believe.

.

Ridiculous !

Just because many children believe in Santa, does not make him reality.

And just because you and others think Christianity is a "revealed religion"
does not make it true.
There is absolutely no evidence that you can point to that proves your point.
And without proof, all you have is belief.
And belief does not make things exist.

Your religion is no more special than anyone else's.

You are trying to say...

"My god can beat up your god"

....

If you ever see the phrase "My god can beat up your god" written on
a bathroom wall.
I was probably the guy who wrote it there.

....

MS Fowler · #4 07-12-2008, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

.

Ridiculous !

Just because many children believe in Santa, does not make him reality.

And just because you and others think Christianity is a "revealed religion"
does not make it true.
There is absolutely no evidence that you can point to that proves your point.
And without proof, all you have is belief.
And belief does not make things exist.

Your religion is no more special than anyone else's.

You are trying to say...

"My god can beat up your god"

....

If you ever see the phrase "My god can beat up your god" written on
a bathroom wall.
I was probably the guy who wrote it there.

....

I see no point in any religion that is man-made.
We've had this part of the discussion here before, now, just for the sake of clarity let me briefly state it--then bow out, because there will be no new information, just an exchange of hot air..

AS Paul, the author of Romans points out, if the resurrection of Jesus is false, then Christianity is a false religion and is best ignored. But he preached Christ crucified and risen. No "proof" other than the testimony of eyewitnesses, combined with the violent deaths of most of the original disciples/apostles. Men do not generally die for what they know to be a lie. ( others will argue that point).

aklim · #5 07-12-2008, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

No "proof" other than the testimony of eyewitnesses, combined with the violent deaths of most of the original disciples/apostles. Men do not generally die for what they know to be a lie. ( others will argue that point).

People we cannot question to see if they really saw what they saw. People see lots of things. Some true, some false. No, you are right, men do not generally die for what the know to be a lie. But just because they think they know it is the truth doesn't make it the truth. People willingly died when Jim Jones told them to do so because they believed what he said. Didn't make what he said true either.

aklim · #6 07-12-2008, 01:55 PM

The alternative is that man has to answer the question with "I don't know.".

MS Fowler · #7 07-13-2008, 07:31 AM

Christianity knows nothing of a "blind leap of faith"/ We have our friend Kierkegaard to thank for that little gem.

Biblical faith is always based on something--it is not blind. It is based on the authority of the Scriptures, on the Person revealed there who is the Creator-God.
It may seem a blind leap to non-believers, but to Christians it is not.

I have heard it explained like this---Suppose you are hikng an unfamiliar mountain, and a thick fog settles in. It is getting cold and there is danger of hypothermia; you need to find shelter.
2 alternatives---
1) You imagine that there is a ledge below you with a sheltering cave in it. You leap off the side of the mountain to find this ledge and its shelter. THAt is the blind leap of faith.
2) From out of the fog comes a voice, load and clear. The voice says, " I have been watching you through my telescope, I know where you are. I have hiked on this mountain 50 years as a man and a boy, I know this mountain. Just below you, on the side of the mountain is a large ledge with a cave that will provide you with shelter. To reach the safety of the cave you need to jump off the trail,. You cannot miss the ledge; I have used this very cave many times." The leap in this case is still a leap of faith, but it is not blind. It is based on a relationship with someone who knows what you cannot possible know. This type of faith is more like biblical faith.
It really comes down to a matter of authority.... Are the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be relied upon as the only rule of faith and practice, or are they not? The choice is yours. All your arguing comes after you made that first decision.

aklim · #8 07-13-2008, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

1) You imagine that there is a ledge below you with a sheltering cave in it. You leap off the side of the mountain to find this ledge and its shelter. THAt is the blind leap of faith.

2) From out of the fog comes a voice, load and clear. The voice says

The leap in this case is still a leap of faith, but it is not blind. It is based on a relationship with someone who knows what you cannot possible know. This type of faith is more like biblical faith.

It really comes down to a matter of authority.... Are the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be relied upon as the only rule of faith and practice, or are they not? The choice is yours. All your arguing comes after you made that first decision.

To me that would be an act of desperation that happens to pan out. A "Hail Mary" play. You imagined something and it happened to be there.

In that case, I can question that voice a little more. Biblical faith would be, in that case, basing it on a journal that someone wrote thousands of years ago and you have no way to ask them of anything. Can we ask any of the writers "What did you really mean in this line?"?

I try have as few faith items in my life as possible. I take things on faith because I have no choice. In your 2nd scenario, I would follow the directions since I know I will die without shelter and have nothing else to lose. I'd die either on the mountains or if I jumped and it wasn't there or there is a slim chance of survival. What else have I to lose? No so in life. I don't have to make a decision based on something someone said 2000 years ago.

DslBnz · #9 07-13-2008, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

Christianity knows nothing of a "blind leap of faith"/ We have our friend Kierkegaard to thank for that little gem.

Biblical faith is always based on something--it is not blind. It is based on the authority of the Scriptures, on the Person revealed there who is the Creator-God.
It may seem a blind leap to non-believers, but to Christians it is not.

I have heard it explained like this---Suppose you are hikng an unfamiliar mountain, and a thick fog settles in. It is getting cold and there is danger of hypothermia; you need to find shelter.
2 alternatives---
1) You imagine that there is a ledge below you with a sheltering cave in it. You leap off the side of the mountain to find this ledge and its shelter. THAt is the blind leap of faith.
2) From out of the fog comes a voice, load and clear. The voice says, " I have been watching you through my telescope, I know where you are. I have hiked on this mountain 50 years as a man and a boy, I know this mountain. Just below you, on the side of the mountain is a large ledge with a cave that will provide you with shelter. To reach the safety of the cave you need to jump off the trail,. You cannot miss the ledge; I have used this very cave many times." The leap in this case is still a leap of faith, but it is not blind. It is based on a relationship with someone who knows what you cannot possible know. This type of faith is more like biblical faith.
It really comes down to a matter of authority.... Are the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be relied upon as the only rule of faith and practice, or are they not? The choice is yours. All your arguing comes after you made that first decision.

It may be based on something, but there's a certain degree of faith involved. More so for us than those who lived during the times of Jesus of Nazareth. I never saw Jesus resurrected. Never met the guy. I've read the epistles of Paul, the synoptic gospels, wisdom literature, the pentateuch, etc. The whole enchilada. I am familiar with all of it. But ultimately it is up to faith to save you. Now, the reason I chose to believe was simply because of three things: modern science with the subject of irreducible complexity (read Darwin's Blackbox), the way history has occurred consistently according to the major prophets (Isaiah and Daniel were awesome), and the coming of Christ occurred when/how it did. The historical Jesus existed. No one can dispute that. If the pieces fit, complete the puzzle with a final leap.

aklim · #10 07-13-2008, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DslBnz

But ultimately it is up to faith to save you.

modern science with the subject of irreducible complexity (read Darwin's Blackbox),

the way history has occurred consistently according to the major prophets (Isaiah and Daniel were awesome),

and the coming of Christ occurred when/how it did. The historical Jesus existed. No one can dispute that.

From what? The bogyman?

Cliff notes from the book please. Irreducible complexity. Isn't that about the Teleological argument? AKA Argument by design?

Nostradamus wasn't too bad either.

In what form? As an alien from outer space in the guise of a human? As somebody the people could believe in based on their limited understanding of sciences?

Matt SD300 · #11 07-13-2008, 10:25 PM

With militant agnostic faith...Help me out here....whats the perk???

No hope/hopeless/Eternal death??.....that just sounds wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....Why would a sane person choose that..............

#12 07-13-2008, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt SD300

No hope/hopeless/Eternal death??.....that just sounds wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....Why would a sane person choose that..............

Because that is reality. I'd rather know this is all I have and live life as much as I can than delusion myself into thinking there is something better after life and blowing what little time there is here.

aklim · #13 07-13-2008, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt SD300

With militant agnostic faith...Help me out here....whats the perk???

No hope/hopeless/Eternal death??.....that just sounds wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!....Why would a sane person choose that..............

What's the perk of being sober? To face a bleak day ahead? I might as well get stonned and/or drunk. Makes the day pass faster and more pleasant.

AdvisorGuy · #14 07-14-2008, 12:32 PM

There are those of us who believe global warming is "real". There's scientific evidence to prove we're helping it along. From what I read, yes, climate is cyclical. It does change but is it verifiable thru measurable scientific means that we're speeding up the process ? Yes, from what I see, read and research. To me, it's tangible. I can smell it, see it, touch it. There are those who look at it and say global warming is a fallacy The proof is not proof at all. It's almost NOT surprising that someone that believes in an "afterlife" really wouldn't care about the here and now because there's something "better" after you're dead and buried. Screw it!! drill here, drill there.. deplete resources, watch species disappear. It's of no matter. When I die in 70 years, I'm going to "heaven". It's no matter how dirty the air is, how polluted the water is, for me or future generations of my family. Drop nukes on those that don't believe what I believe. Let my family & friends die of radiation poisoning. It's of no matter. They're going to a better place. The existence of this higher being is not provable, is not tangible by anything other than "faith".

Those of us that do not believe in the invisible man (at least in my own experience), is not due to a lack of education on the subject. I come from a non-practicing Muslim family. I went to a catholic high school. I've read the Koran, the OT & NT and the King James. On a whole, they sound and read like someone's control agenda, not "miracles". I can't see living MY life the way SOMEONE ELSE tells me to, in the hopes that I may wind up in a better place than where I am when I die.

Since these "miracles" were performed "thousands of years ago" and we are waiting for the "second coming", I guess all the believers are content with Jesus appearing on potato chips and pieces of burnt toast in the mean time to prove his existence.

#15 07-14-2008, 12:38 PM

Don't drag this thread into another global warming myth derailment.