Jesus not a unique suffering Messiah - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

aklim · #31 07-11-2008, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by link

Is freedom merely the escape from being “I?” If so, is this a goal of religion?

And bringing it back to the topic of the thread, does resurrection of JC serve the purpose of freedom?[/FONT][/COLOR]

Isn't one of the main goals of religion to control behavior? If there is no God or an afterlife, think about this. Man is going to be imperfect. As such, all I have to do is commit a crime and stay out of man's reach long enough and I am home free. Say I kill somebody but nobody saw. As long as I die before somebody finds out, I am free. With religion, there is a God and an afterlife. What does this mean? Well, if I get caught, I get punished and punished again. I don't think any religion has the "Double Jeopardy" clause. So, this means that the crime will be punished at least once, if not twice. There is now NO ESCAPE from punishment. Something for you to consider when doing naughty things.

I think it serves as an extreme example of power. Look, this guy is dead but he has overcome death. If he can do that, he can keep you from dying. Most of our hardened criminals are even afraid of the death penalty. But now, you have a way of living forever. You won't die. See this guy? He was dead. Now he is not.

kerry · #32 07-11-2008, 02:49 PM

I think part of the purpose of some aspects of religion is to provide a release from social pressures.

I have no idea how Jesus' resurrection might produce freedom except insofar as some Christian theologians see it as some kind of juridical settlement, relieving humans from the threat of eternal damnation as a result of being born sinful by inflicting the punishment on Jesus instead of humans, relieving God of his responsibility for having screwed up creation by making humans sinful.

Edit in response to Aklim's view: One of the reasons religion has to relieve people of social pressures is because it does so much to create them.

Idolotor · #33 07-11-2008, 02:51 PM

To each their own.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism's_view_of_Jesus

aklim · #34 07-11-2008, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

One of the reasons religion has to relieve people of social pressures is because it does so much to create them.

You are thinking it becomes a zero sum equation? Could it be that it creates additional pressure but doesn't relive much?

link · #35 07-11-2008, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Isn't one of the main goals of religion to control behavior?

I don’t know that behavior control is a primary goal of religion. To suggest so amounts to unfair reducitonism. Religion seeks to explain and fulfill a need experienced broadly by mankind.

Quote:

I think it serves as an extreme example of power. Look, this guy is dead but he has overcome death. If he can do that, he can keep you from dying. Most of our hardened criminals are even afraid of the death penalty. But now, you have a way of living forever. You won't die. See this guy? He was dead. Now he is not.

So you are saying that immortality is the height of freedom?

RichC · #36 07-11-2008, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

The language/sound producing part of the brain in most of our lives is closely connected to the meaningful production of sounds. In other words, we utter sounds that communicate in a social context. Only rarely do we utter meaningless sounds. This is quite a constrictive process whereby the social necessity of shared meaning impinges upon individual freedom of sound production.
Thinking is closely connected to these meaningful sounds resulting in the fact that thoughts and words become indistinguishable. The private use of glossalalia disconnects meaningful words and sounds resulting in a thoughtless mind.
The best way I know to illustrate this is insomnia. If I can't sleep because my mind is racing, thinking about a million things, I can speak in tongues and the thoughts disappear resulting in almost immediate sleep. So I think that speaking in tongues is a kind of shortcut to the kind of experience that mystics seek in meditation. It's a Pentecostal Nirvana. Part of the reason why I think both traditional Nirvana and Pentecostal Nirvana is appealing is that it frees the individual from the influence of others, producing a religious liberation of sorts. This liberation can only occur in two possible ways. Either it involves no words or sounds at all (the Zen experience) or it involves words and sounds that mean nothing to anyone(the Pentecostal experience). In either instance the 'individual' is freed from society.

.
Because of what you said I tried a little experiment with amazing results.

Instead of trying to practice quiet or mantra meditation I used sounds
that came to mind at the time.

I naturally cycled thru several sounds, more aggressive and guttural at first, ending with very southing sounds with lots of s, o, and w sounds.

These sounds seemed to flow naturally from my mind/body.
And it was not a forced progression from aggressive to soothing, but
happened very spontaneously, and naturally.

I dropped to a very deep level of meditation more quickly than usual.

And I finally understand why I like to meditate with loud metal music.

It is the unintelligible, glossolalia like sounds from the vocalist in certain
metal bands.

Dude, thanks very much for posting what you did.
You may have changed the way I meditate.

But I bet anyone that happens to catch me while I am doing it is
gonna think I have really lost my mind.

Thank you
RichC

.

link · #37 07-11-2008, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

Edit in response to Aklim's view: One of the reasons religion has to relieve people of social pressures is because it does so much to create them.

So you are saying that religion serves only as mechanism of transference?

RichC · #38 07-11-2008, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

This whole thread assumes that all religions are man-made attempts to explain the unknown.
Christianity, as a revealed religion--meaning truth revealed by God that is otherwise unknowable--- is a very different matter.
I hope some of you can appreciate the difference, although I know some will ( willful choice) not.
Lack of belief is not often due to a lack of knowledge, or an imperfection of knowledge, but rather a willful choice not to believe. You do not believe because you choose not to believe.

.

Ridiculous !

Just because many children believe in Santa, does not make him reality.

And just because you and others think Christianity is a "revealed religion"
does not make it true.
There is absolutely no evidence that you can point to that proves your point.
And without proof, all you have is belief.
And belief does not make things exist.

Your religion is no more special than anyone else's.

You are trying to say...

"My god can beat up your god"

....

If you ever see the phrase "My god can beat up your god" written on
a bathroom wall.
I was probably the guy who wrote it there.

....

kerry · #39 07-11-2008, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by link

So you are saying that religion serves only as mechanism of transference?

No. I think 'religion' is a very complex phenomena. In fact, 'religion' is a synonym for a variety of cultural practices, some of which still exist in secular non-religious societies.
I agree with Aklim that religion is a mechanism for social control. I also think it tries to answers metaphysical questions about the source of the universe and whether or not we exist beyond this physical existence. It is a means of escaping social pressures, perhaps best typified by monks who shirk most socially productive activity and escape to meditiation and prayer in isolation. It also serves as a source of moral values in addition to providing social authority.
In this instance of Jesus as Messiah, it appears to provide a hope for relief from political oppression.

kerry · #40 07-11-2008, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

.

Dude, thanks very much for posting what you did.
You may have changed the way I meditate.

But I bet anyone that happens to catch me while I am doing it is
gonna think I have really lost my mind.

Thank you
RichC

.

J.Z. Knight would have charged about $5k for that insight. Maybe I should start a Buddhacostal cult.

RichC · #41 07-11-2008, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

J.Z. Knight would have charged about $5k for that insight. Maybe I should start a Buddhacostal cult.

Bad boys, Bad boys, whatcha gonna do when Ramtha comes for you ....

.

aklim · #42 07-11-2008, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by link

I don’t know that behavior control is a primary goal of religion. To suggest so amounts to unfair reducitonism.

Religion seeks to explain and fulfill a need experienced broadly by mankind.

So you are saying that immortality is the height of freedom?

May not be primary but like I said, one of the main goals.

But is the explaination true or just something inserted so that we can say "Here is the answer" which sounds better than "I don't know"?

Probably. If something you fear most is death, wouldn't immortality be freedom?

chetwesley · #43 07-11-2008, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

If the current interpretation of this new find is correct, it raises doubts about Jesus' exclusivity.
It's not very easy to figure out what the NT writers meant by the phrases 'son of man' and 'son of god'. C.S. Lewis's view seems to depend on later theological interpretations of Jesus than those of the gospel writers.

There are also many other "gospels" and other early Christian texts which were purposely left out of the New Testament by the people who put it together.

People at the time of Jesus had varying views on what Jesus was all about and a sort of synthesis was developed to create an "official" religion out of it. Christianity as it it now actually formed more out of Paul's view on Christianity than from Jesus's direct disciples. Paul even talks in his writing in the new testament about how he confronted Peter somewhere and spoke against him (even though Jesus himself appointed Peter as the foundation of his church).

After Jesus's death, the disciples were in Jerusalem in the midst of the termoil of the Jewish rebellion, while Paul was off away from all the chaos where he could go around preaching. Paul supposedly never actually even met Jesus, or at the least, he spent a lot less time with him than the disciples would have.

There are still documents existing written by those who were deciding what texts would form the official new testament, and what their reasoning was and why they chose what they chose.

The form of Christianity and the predominant texts that emerged is a result of many factors, including Roman political ones.

aklim · #44 07-11-2008, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

I also think it tries to answers metaphysical questions about the source of the universe and whether or not we exist beyond this physical existence.

It is a means of escaping social pressures, perhaps best typified by monks who shirk most socially productive activity and escape to meditiation and prayer in isolation.

It also serves as a source of moral values in addition to providing social authority.

In this instance of Jesus as Messiah, it appears to provide a hope for relief from political oppression.

But are those the right answers or just answers? Question: What is 2+2? You can give any number you want as an answer. Only 1 is right. So, in this case, is this the right answer that it gives or just an answer?

You are beginning to make it sound like drugs and alcohol. Both of which can provide you an escape from the problem.

Can't our laws do that just as well? We agreed to follow those laws if we want to live in this society because it needs order. Why do we need a supernatural being for authority?

But does it provide an oppression of it's own?

Matt L · #45 07-11-2008, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Question: What is 2+2? You can give any number you want as an answer. Only 1 is right.

Nice double entendre. Of course, only 4 is right.