Jesus not a unique suffering Messiah - Page 10 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

chilcutt · #**136** 10-11-2010, 11:39 PM

Thats a good one

. What I am saying is, I have always been a free thinker. I was that 1% of the kids in any american class-room that didnt believe everything the teachers/administration was trying to force down my throat.
The scene with the School principle and 'Forrest Gumps' mother pretty much sums up my feelings on bueracacy.(sp)

aklim · #**137** 10-12-2010, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilcutt

Thats a good one

. What I am saying is, I have always been a free thinker. I was that 1% of the kids in any american class-room that didnt believe everything the teachers/administration was trying to force down my throat.
The scene with the School principle and 'Forrest Gumps' mother pretty much sums up my feelings on bueracacy.(sp)

What exactly is a "Free Thinker"?

chilcutt · #**138** 10-12-2010, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

What exactly is a "Free Thinker"?

Your interpretation may differ from mine. But my interpretation of 'What is a Free-Thinker' is as follows.
One who refuses to submit his reason for existing to the control of Authority.. a fair minded person who is open to new idea's and concept's.
A person who is flexible and malleable in their approach to life, but also a person who trust's his gut and appraoches things with a healthy bit of scepticism.

Hogweed · #**139** 10-12-2010, 07:32 AM

read about Gnostic heresy and docetism to explain this 2000 year old argument that questions the humanity of Jesus. Jesus crying out in agony on the cross "Eli, Eli, lama sabbacthini?"...why are you forsaking me? asking God to let him not have to go through the pain and humiliation of crucifixion, and the worst agony of all: seperation from God, which He had known forever is surely not nothing, and certainly does not sound like someone who is immune to suffering and death

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

How so? Assuming he was real, he didn't really give up his life since he knew he could not die.

Hogweed · #**140** 10-12-2010, 07:54 AM

"really inconclusive, broken stone fragment being used to discredit Christianity....AGAIN"
i mean, seriously, kerry, why is so important for you to try to convert people away from the truth? what injury did you suffer from within the body of Christ that makes you want to take such wild swings against the faith and one true God that actually laid down His life for yours?

"But the stone is broken, and some of the text is faded, meaning that much of what it says is open to debate."

and the title you picked sounds so authorotative...

everything about the life death and ressurection of Jesus is important because they point to hope for a fallen and broken world. Jesus' message is clear and simple: love God and love your neighbor. imagine what the world would look like if we all were able to love unconditionally, and turn the other cheek, instead of harboring resentment and seeking revenge; relying on God to provide for our needs and resting in Him. i will pray for your healing, brother

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

A OT scholar just linked me to this piece. It could have quite significant implications:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/world/middleeast/06stone.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&sq=Ancient%20%20Tablet%20Ignites&st=nyt&scp=1

kerry · #**141** 10-12-2010, 09:35 AM

The statement that I am trying to convert people away from the faith doesn't strike me as true. I don't see how that issue is related to the topic of this thread. I am interested in the history of religion and this discovery may be helpful in understanding the idea of a suffering Messiah in Judaism. Why wouldn't a Christian be interested in the historical development of his or her religion? The person who sent me the link is very intrigued by the find and as far as I know is a Christian. The fact that it is open to debate is just the same situation as in virtually any ancient text. Is the fact that the gospels refer to the Son of Man and Son of God any less a debatable issue. What do those phrases mean? Do they mean the same thing as what is stated in the Nicean creed?
Why would the fact that Jesus is not a unique suffering Messiah undermine Christianity? The idea of God in Christianity is common with other religions yet people don't think that fact in some way destroys Christianity.

The whole idea that the world is fallen and needs salvation and that a father killing his son can provide this salvation makes no sense to me. If you think it does, please elaborate since an explanation might be useful to a lot of people.

By the way, the title of the thread comes from the linked article. I didn't invent it.

aklim · #**142** 10-12-2010, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hogweed

read about Gnostic heresy and docetism to explain this 2000 year old argument that questions the humanity of Jesus. Jesus crying out in agony on the cross "Eli, Eli, lama sabbacthini?"...why are you forsaking me? asking God to let him not have to go through the pain and humiliation of crucifixion, and the worst agony of all: seperation from God, which He had known forever is surely not nothing, and certainly does not sound like someone who is immune to suffering and death

Matthew 27:62-63

62Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
63Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

That kinda hints to me that he knew he would die and he knew he would come back in 3 days. Knowing that, what is the sacrifice of life? If I know that by giving you $1000 your father would compensate me for it, what is the real sacrifice? OTOH, if I don't know what will happen, I have to think carefully about giving you the money since I don't know how I will make it back.

MS Fowler · #**143** 10-12-2010, 04:35 PM

Kerry,

IIRC ( and that is often in doubt), you were, at one time, involved in ministry in the Assemblies of God. Further, I think you visited a missionary of that denomination in central or south America, and were appalled that the missionary's life-style and treatment of the indigenous peoples varied so widely from had been professed, and that was the beginning ( or another step) along your road away from the AG.
If I am right, I think that helps understand some of your antagonism to Christianity, especially for someone who might be new to the conversation.

As to your choice of title for the thread, I never considered "uniqueness" as a consideration when evaluating the claims of Christ. If one accepts the whole God/ Satan reality, then it would be quite logical, and expected, even, that Satan would try to delude as many as he could. Imitation is a great weapon when used that way.

MS Fowler · #**144** 10-12-2010, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Matthew 27:62-63

62Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
63Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

That kinda hints to me that he knew he would die and he knew he would come back in 3 days. Knowing that, what is the sacrifice of life? If I know that by giving you $1000 your father would compensate me for it, what is the real sacrifice? OTOH, if I don't know what will happen, I have to think carefully about giving you the money since I don't know how I will make it back.

I believe you fail to understand the death that Jesus faced. The ultimate meaning of "death" is "separation". Death separates us from our loved ones.
Jesus, as God, had never know complete separation from God, the Father. There was a certain level of separation that accompanied what we call "the humiliation"--i.e the incarnation and human life, but even through all that, Jesus knew the Father. His death via crucifixion was to result in total ( although relatively short-lived) separation from God, and although He knew it was of a definite duration, he still had to experience it--something God had never before experienced. One of the names for God translates as " The Self-Existent One". Ponder, for a moment how " The Self Existent One" ponders His coming death.

kerry · #**145** 10-12-2010, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

Kerry,

IIRC ( and that is often in doubt), you were, at one time, involved in ministry in the Assemblies of God. Further, I think you visited a missionary of that denomination in central or south America, and were appalled that the missionary's life-style and treatment of the indigenous peoples varied so widely from had been professed, and that was the beginning ( or another step) along your road away from the AG.
If I am right, I think that helps understand some of your antagonism to Christianity, especially for someone who might be new to the conversation.

.

I was for a brief period a minister in the Independent Assemblies of God (different than the Assemblies of God). I did do a missionary tour of South America and I did conclude both that the missionaries were exceedingly naive as to what was happening in their congregations and appalled at their defense of fascism. However that had little or nothing to do with my departure from the faith since neither of those things had anything to do with the truth or meaningfulness of Christian belief. My departure was closely related to the fact that I eventually concluded that theism was not true, that theories of atonement made no sense, and the claims to magical power of the biblical text were unwarranted based on the nature of the text.

#**146** 10-12-2010, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

I was for a brief period a minister in the Independent Assemblies of God (different than the Assemblies of God). I did do a missionary tour of South America and I did conclude both that the missionaries were exceedingly naive as to what was happening in their congregations and appalled at their defense of fascism. However that had little or nothing to do with my departure from the faith since neither of those things had anything to do with the truth or meaningfulness of Christian belief. My departure was closely related to the fact that I eventually concluded that theism was not true, that theories of atonement made no sense, and the claims to magical power of the biblical text were unwarranted based on the nature of the text.

Personally, I never understood the "logic" of religious belief. When I was about 12 I decided that it simply didn't make any sense and walked away. Later, I assumed that most people either "needed" something to believe in or were simply carrying on a family tradition. At some point, I just decided that I wasn't "wired" to believe in something without any empirical evidence, but some other people must be.

The part that I still don't understand is why some folks seem to want to "defend" their belief system and/or convince others that they should also believe. If someone chooses to believe in a specific "god," why would they care what others choose to believe? Do they believe that it is part of their duty to bring others into the flock? I'm not being a smart ass, I really don't get it.

aklim · #**147** 10-12-2010, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

I believe you fail to understand the death that Jesus faced. The ultimate meaning of "death" is "separation". Death separates us from our loved ones.

and although He knew it was of a definite duration, he still had to experience it--something God had never before experienced. One of the names for God translates as " The Self-Existent One". Ponder, for a moment how " The Self Existent One" ponders His coming death.

So we are not talking of physical death but a metaphysical one.

Which brings us to relatively the same point. Knowing a suffering is going to be a definite duration is a lot easier than facing an unknown. Take an example of an alcoholic. A lot of them are winos who never have a sober moment if the money is present. Yet many of them are also functional alcoholics where they are wonderful people, high achieving, etc, etc. How do you reconcile that? Well, they can discipline themselves enough to maintain an image of sobriety during work hours and excel. After that, well......

aklim · #**148** 10-12-2010, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

Personally, I never understood the "logic" of religious belief. When I was about 12 I decided that it simply didn't make any sense and walked away. Later, I assumed that most people either "needed" something to believe in or were simply carrying on a family tradition. At some point, I just decided that I wasn't "wired" to believe in something without any empirical evidence, but some other people must be.

The part that I still don't understand is why some folks seem to want to "defend" their belief system and/or convince others that they should also believe. If someone chooses to believe in a specific "god," why would they care what others choose to believe? Do they believe that it is part of their duty to bring others into the flock? I'm not being a smart ass, I really don't get it.

When you look at it and see how it is applied, the logic might appear. What else do I threaten you with? What could be more terrifying than an all knowing, all seeing being that will punish you for your sins? You know that in this life, all you have to do is outfox another human. Without religion, it means that if you outfox your fellow man, you are home free. 20 years ago, I stole from you. Today, the statute of limitations ran out. I'm clean. Sucks to be you, don't it? But wait. We have a deity in the ball game. He/She/It will punish you even if we don't. Escape us and you will be punished once. Get caught and it is double jeopardy with no legal recourse.

For religions, when they start out, they are small. Small groups = less clout = more easily being overrun or ignored. Bigger groups make more clout.

kerry · #**149** 10-12-2010, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

Personally, I never understood the "logic" of religious belief. When I was about 12 I decided that it simply didn't make any sense and walked away. Later, I assumed that most people either "needed" something to believe in or were simply carrying on a family tradition. At some point, I just decided that I wasn't "wired" to believe in something without any empirical evidence, but some other people must be.

The part that I still don't understand is why some folks seem to want to "defend" their belief system and/or convince others that they should also believe. If someone chooses to believe in a specific "god," why would they care what others choose to believe? Do they believe that it is part of their duty to bring others into the flock? I'm not being a smart ass, I really don't get it.

Duty is a big part of it. But definitely not all of it. Why do quantum physicists want to convince Newtonian physicists that they have an inadequate physical theory? Because the quantum physicist thinks they are right and the Newtonians wrong. Similarly with religious people.

aklim · #**150** 10-12-2010, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

Duty is a big part of it. But definitely not all of it. Why do quantum physicists want to convince Newtonian physicists that they have an inadequate physical theory? Because the quantum physicist thinks they are right and the Newtonians wrong. Similarly with religious people.

Quantum or Newtonian physics has way more use than religion though.