Reported by some in the area I believe.
Always a possibility in those (cold and wet) conditions.

__________________
1980 300D - Veggie Burner !

Keep in mind how much any liquid weighs and how much space it takes up.
Weight, is everything in aviation. Space is critical as well.

Why have all that weight taking up all that space when you rarely need it. Not to mention, given the circumstances in which the ice is forming (and where). That’s one heck of a plumbing system to keep a wing coated in hopes of prevention.

Rubber “boots” on the leading edge is pretty popular in general/mid size aircraft. Easy to spot as they are usually black in color. There’s a simple pump (on most piston engine planes) connected to a cycle timer that pumps them up just enough to shatter off any build up before it becomes an issue. The system equipment is pretty small and the electrons that run it are even smaller. Some larger systems run compressed bleed ait to the boots. The air is ambient. Not to mention pretty cheep.

Hot air ducting is pretty simple too. It’s what’s on many (larger) corporate jets and most commercial aircraft. Open a valve and hot air heats the wing leading edge from the backside. No freezing. No build up. No problems.

IIRC: The Dash-8 has electric props and pneumatic (boot type) wing and tail de-icing systems.
If icing brought this one down, there’s no telling at this time, why. System not on?…System malfunction?…Cycle time not right?... Conditions just too bad for the system to stay ahead of?.... Who knows…???

I’ll be interested in what becomes of that localizer fluctuation issue myself.

__________________
1980 300D - Veggie Burner !

Hey, LutzTD, apparently the pilot was from Lutz!

__________________
Dan
2005 E320 CDI - 246k
1987 300SDL TD05-16g, Herlevi pump, Elbe manifold, 2.47 LSD - 213k
Past: 1987 300D - 264k

NTSB: Crew reported ice buildup before crash

50 people killed when plane plunges into home in upstate New York


CLARENCE, N.Y. - The crew of Continental Connection Flight 3407 discussed a "significant" buildup of ice on the windshield and wings shortly before the commuter plane plunged out of the night sky and nose-dived into a suburban Buffalo house, federal investigators said Friday.

All 49 people on board and one person on the ground were killed in the first fatal crash of a commercial airliner in the U.S. in 2 1/2 years.

Stephen Chealander, a spokesman for the National Transportation Safety Board, said the cockpit conversations indicated the crew reported poor visibility at 16,000 feet and requested permission from air-traffic controllers to descend.

They said there was "significant ice buildup, ice on the windshield and wings,” Chealander said at a news conference, citing information captured from the "black box" flight data and cockpit voice recorders that were recovered.

Shortly thereafter, the plane went into a series of severe pitches and rolls, Chealander said.

He said the cause of the disaster was under investigation. Other pilots were overheard around the same time Thursday night complaining of ice building up on their planes' wings — a hazard that has caused major crashes in the past.

The twin-turboprop aircraft from Newark, N.J., was coming in for a landing when it went down in light snow and fog around 10:20 p.m. Thursday about five miles short of the Buffalo Niagara International Airport.

Witnesses heard the plane sputtering before it plunged squarely through the roof of a house, its tail section visible through flames shooting at least 50 feet high.

So near..yet so far.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29173163/?GT1=43001

I just flew on this type of plane last fall and it's supposed to be one of the safest. One really cannot know when it's time to go. Indeed a sad day, but at least the people died in an instant. I feel even more sorry for those who were burnt alive in those Australian fires.

__________________
2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

It's quite amazing, in reality. The shape of the airfoil is so critical that a buildup of ice that's only 1/4" thick will seriously compromise the lift. It's not the weight of the ice that's the issue..........but the change in airfoil's shape.

It happens in a very sinister fashion.........very gradual change in aircraft performance...........that's usually compensated with power and pitch. But, when the aircraft is on final approach and the energy of the aircraft is low and the pitch is relatively high..........there's no margin left for compensation and the aircraft stalls at a much higher speed than the book limits.

If you know you're in icing and the performance of the aircraft has degraded...........do you continue on final with normal approach parameters for speed and flap settings? This seems like the kiss of death to me............seems like you'd fly the aircraft at +30 kt. because you just don't know where the stall speed is...........

I had the same thought. Wouldn't it be standard procedure in these kinds of conditions?

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

No kidding.

A long, long time ago, I was heavy into R/C sailplanes. We'd go slope soaring every weekend, rain or shine; one weekend we were flying off of the back of an earthen fill dam north of town in darned near 0/0 conditions with heavy fog and mist but the wind was textbook perfect. The moisture in the air would gradually collect and bead up on the wings to the point that the ship's performance was noticeably degraded. To fix, you'd work up some altitude and zoom dive to get enough airspeed to blow/shake the droplets off the wing.

__________________
Never a dull moment at Berry Hill Farm.

That's the understatement of the decade in the corporate world.
1/4 inch, and I'm calling Jesus on the VHF. Slats, Spoilers, Ailerons are pretty much DRT (Dead Right There) under 1/4 of ice.

If you know you're in icing and the performance of the aircraft has degraded...........

Your on the right track with this, but need to keep in mind that it's not always as easy to tell as some may think.
You know the conditions are right. You have the systems on that are designed to "help" get you through it, but sometimes you can get busy with other proceedures and all the sudden....well...you're....

Things can go from "Bad to Worst" in no time when it comes to icing.

- Shelby

__________________
1980 300D - Veggie Burner !

The 1/4" is based upon analysis of the wing and the lift potential with said ice. In reality, the pilot cannot know the thickness of the ice. Furthermore, the ice will vary in thickness across the surface of the wing.

With a smaller aircraft, the figure of 1/4" might be on the high side. The figure was derived from the wing of a typical airliner.

This same phenomenon brought down a commuter in Indiana 15 years ago.

__________________
MBlovr
'59 180 Dad's original
'59 180 Dad's 2nd one
'67 250SE Dad's last one
'59 220 SE My first one
'62 220SE Coupe second one
'89 190E 2.6 5spd third one
'06 E350 4matic (sold)
'10 E350 4matic

With all the terrible weather we get here, I still never imagined anything like this happening a few minutes away from where I live.

Easy there.... It wasnt a shot.

Sure thing. 1/4" on a 767 is a whole 'nuther world from a 1/4" on a 400A.


I can recall a few flights where I landed and got out to see nearly 1/4” at the roots and wondered where the closest LOTTO office was.

Flying in icing conditions can be a lot "like a box of chocolates...." You know how the rest of that one goes.

As for pushing up the speeds on approach. That sometimes is a good thing. But the other side of that coin is that when you get up into the range where it’s actually going to help you out...You’re now going to touch down on a slick surface with that speed and often wind up touching down long as well. Sometimes, not an issue. Sometimes it sure can be. Let's not leave out traveling through more moisture in a shorter time span as well.

I’m interested in seeing what they come up with for this one. I’d sure hate to hear they didn’t have their de-icing systems set properly.

Also - Keep in mind here guys – They’re called “DE-ICING” systems. Not “ANTI- ICING” systems on the Dash-8 (and a zillion other aircraft). I’m not sure about the system on the Dash-8, but I know on a lot of what I’ve flown, you can set the cycle rate. If applicable, I hope they were on MAX. Regardless, as I said before: Bad to Worst happens really quick in the “wrong” conditions.

- Shelby

__________________
1980 300D - Veggie Burner !

Wasnt that the ATR ? IIRC: They had a control surface freeze up/over of some sort. Not sure on that though.

The fleet of which AMR moved down to the Caribbean shortly there after.

(Only to move out the 340s and bring them back up here, just in time for this winter.)
I think they maybe re-wrote some proceedures for that one.

- S

__________________
1980 300D - Veggie Burner !