The Gun Thread

[jplinville]

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

Personal beliefs aside

‘(30) The term ‘semiautomatic assault weapon’ means--

‘(A) any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as--

‘(i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models);

‘(ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil;

‘(iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70);

‘(iv) Colt AR-15;

‘(v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC;

‘(vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12;

‘(vii) Steyr AUG;

‘(viii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and

‘(ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12;

‘(B) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of--

‘(i) a folding or telescoping stock;

‘(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

‘(iii) a bayonet mount;

‘(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and

‘(v) a grenade launcher;

‘(C) a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of--

‘(i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;

‘(ii) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;

‘(iii) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the nontrigger hand without being burned;

‘(iv) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and

‘(v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm; and

‘(D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of--

‘(i) a folding or telescoping stock;

‘(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

‘(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and

‘(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.’.

Funny...I have a few of those listed above...does that make me a criminal, or a collector.

I also own a Thompson Sub-Machine Gun that is full automatic with both a 50 round and a 100 round drum, as well as about 20 bannana clips. (I have a Class III license)

With what I have in my arsenal, I would call myself a collector.

[jplinville]

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

Think of the licensing as an extension of the background check that you seem to be fine with. After all, why does the 2nd amendment use the phrase well-regulated? Obviously it was to allow the government to regulate guns as it sees fit. Just like the 1st amendment, the 2nd one is not an unlimited right.

You are obviously wrong, my un-educated friend. Regulated meant nothing with regulating firearms.

INAPPROPRIATE
B.C.

[Hatterasguy]

Originally Posted by JollyRoger

How sad that that all takes place after someone is killed instead of before. My assertion is that because of the nature of weapons, we need a mechananism to weed out people who should not have guns before they massacre a room full of people. It would require the same things it requires to own a car, with an additional requirement of a standard physcological test, in fact, because it involves a well-regulated militia, I recommend the US Army's test, it does a wonderful job of keeping crazy people from enlisting, and I bet it will do a fine job in making sure we have no crazies in our Well Regulated Militia as well. If a person can pass such a test, pass another showing he knows how to operate a firearm safely and a background check, he would be granted a license. He would then be required to register his weapon's serial number with the US Official Well-Regulated Militia Database, just like the US Army does in it's database with the weapons that it has. Finally, he would be required to obtain a liability policy for the weapon. Voila, a well-regulated militia.

I will agree to this on two conditions:

Once I do all of this I can own any weapon I chose, no restrictions. (excluding nuclear and biological.)

The point of a well regulated militia is to defend this country from both outsiders, and the government if the need should arise. To do this we need to be as well armed as the regulars, so I want a mill spec G36, with armour piercing rounds, body armour, and hand gernades. I also want my local militia to have access to the latest tanks and artillery if we can afford it.

2. The miltia must be independent from the government, with its own command structure. IE they can't say we want your guns give us the records.

[cmbdiesel]

Originally Posted by jplinville

Funny...I have a few of those listed above...does that make me a criminal, or a collector.

I also own a Thompson Sub-Machine Gun that is full automatic with both a 50 round and a 100 round drum, as well as about 20 bannana clips. (I have a Class III license)

With what I have in my arsenal, I would call myself a collector.

Well, am I ever proud of YOU. Why don't you put a list on your signature with what you paid for them so we can all be impressed.

IF you have a class III license, you should have easily recognized the language of the 1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban. Any serious collector would.

[amosfella]

Originally Posted by LaRondo

Criteria? CZ 2075 RAMI

Anyone know who she is???

[pj67coll]

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

Think of the licensing as an extension of the background check that you seem to be fine with. After all, why does the 2nd amendment use the phrase well-regulated? Obviously it was to allow the government to regulate guns as it sees fit. Just like the 1st amendment, the 2nd one is not an unlimited right.

"A well regulated milita being necessary to the maintenance of a free state," means that there might be some regulations pertaining to the militia itself. It says nothing about guns.

"the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." means that there are no infringements on the rights of the citizenry to have arms - of any kind - though for obvious reasons the principal ones under consideration are guns.

- Peter.

[cmbdiesel]

Originally Posted by pj67coll

"A well regulated milita being necessary to the maintenance of a free state," means that there might be some regulations pertaining to the militia itself. It says nothing about guns.

"the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." means that there are no infringements on the rights of the citizenry to have arms - of any kind - though for obvious reasons the principal ones under consideration are guns.

- Peter.

You're not quoting the original text of the Constitution.

[pj67coll]

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

You're not quoting the original text of the Constitution.

I'm quoting it from memory.

- Peter.

[DieselAddict]

Originally Posted by pj67coll

"A well regulated milita being necessary to the maintenance of a free state," means that there might be some regulations pertaining to the militia itself. It says nothing about guns.

"the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." means that there are no infringements on the rights of the citizenry to have arms - of any kind - though for obvious reasons the principal ones under consideration are guns.

- Peter.

With your literal interpretation, the 2nd amendment is violated every time there's a background check done. Are you saying everyone, including felons and mentally unstable people, should have the right to own any gun?

[cmbdiesel]

Originally Posted by pj67coll

"A well regulated milita being necessary to the maintenance of a free state," means that there might be some regulations pertaining to the militia itself. It says nothing about guns.

"the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." means that there are no infringements on the rights of the citizenry to have arms - of any kind - though for obvious reasons the principal ones under consideration are guns.

- Peter.

Just an example of the kind of analysis that has gone into interpreting the Constitution - in this case the seemingly unusual use of commas inthe 2nd Amendment.
The first unusual comma --between "Militia" and "being" -- forces the reader to search for a verb for which "Militia" is the subject. That verb does not appear until "shall not be infringed" near the end of the Amendment. The second unusual comma -- between "Arms" and "shall" -- sets off the verb phrase "shall not be infringed" from the preceding language; it suggests that the subject for this verb phrase is not simply "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms." The grammatical effect of these two unusual commas is to link "A well regulated Militia" to "shall not be infringed" to emphasize, in other words, that the goal of the Amendment is to protect the militia against federal interference. The Constitution was drafted with great care, and (unlike much legal writing from the Founding period) its use of punctuation generally conforms to modern conventions, suggesting that the commas in the Second Amendment are not haphazard but rather deserve scrupulous attention.

[DieselAddict]

Originally Posted by Da Nag

"Well regulated" - it meant no such thing at the time it was written.

However, feel free to join with the others here who continue to spout such nonsense - regardless of how many times, the error of this assumption is pointed out.

Search to your heart's content. The issue is not open to any rational debate; when taken in it's historical context, historians who agree that "regulated" means "controlled", are respected about as much as flat earth proponents.

So what does regulated mean? And where is this militia today that the amendment refers to?

[pj67coll]

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

Are you saying everyone, including felons and mentally unstable people, should have the right to own any gun?

As I've said numerous times before. The mere fact of being a criminal should remove any rights you used to have in my opinion. Being a whackjob is a different matter. How do you prove mental issues? I don't like the idea of whackjob's being armed. But then I don't like the idea of criminals being armed either. More than either issue thoug I dislike the idea of regular folk being disarmed by the facist state. However both of those issues are subsidiary to the basic intent of the founders of the nation and the essence of America as duly constituted, ie it is NOT a facist state and it does NOT have the authority to disarm it's ciitzenry.

- Peter.

[Da Nag]

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

So what does regulated mean?

Since the only definition relevant is the one used when the 2nd was written, I'm assuming that's what you are referring to. If so, the link provided earlier will allow you to look it up on your own. Numerous examples and attributions are provided, from people far more educated in such matters than me. The term was widely used with no ambiguity, during the period in question.

And where is this militia today that the amendment refers to?

While the term also suffers from changes in meaning, depending on time and context, any accepted definition is no longer relevant to the issues being discussed here. The SC just made it perfectly clear the 2nd is an individual right, and as such, has no bearing on militia membership - however you wish to define it.

[cmbdiesel]

Originally Posted by pj67coll

As I've said numerous times before. The mere fact of being a criminal should remove any rights you used to have in my opinion. Being a whackjob is a different matter. How do you prove mental issues? I don't like the idea of whackjob's being armed. But then I don't like the idea of criminals being armed either. More than either issue thoug I dislike the idea of regular folk being disarmed by the facist state. However both of those issues are subsidiary to the basic intent of the founders of the nation and the essence of America as duly constituted, ie it is NOT a facist state and it does NOT have the authority to disarm it's ciitzenry.

- Peter.

According to the ATF, these people can't receive or posses firearms -

(B5) Are there certain persons who cannot legally receive or possess firearms and/or ammunition? [Back]
Yes, a person who –

(1) Has been convicted in any court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year;
(2) Is a fugitive from justice;
(3) Is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance;
(4) Has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution;
(5) Is an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States or an alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa;
(6) Has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
(7) Having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his or her citizenship;
(8) Is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner; or
(9) Has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence
(10) Cannot lawfully receive, possess, ship, or transport a firearm.

[Hatterasguy]

Knob Creek, night shoot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AWBjS7UU6o&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgYpRpiZmf0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCOMm6FmTw8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s6_vufc1ns&feature=related