"What would I want to get rid of it for?" - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

BodhiBenz1987 · #1 08-02-2009, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 450slcguy

You don't get it.

I get more than you think I get. Throwing cash back into a failed infrastructure doesn't fix the problem. A debt-drenched economy will fail; it cannot sustain itself indefinitely. It has failed already and taking taxpayers' money and throwing it out there to entice the consumer base to go back to it's irresponsible spending habits of a glorious yesteryear does no good. Want people to buy stuff? Find a way to get them to produce stuff. I'm not against people buying new cars, by any means ... obviously when people buy new cars, the auto industry is able to maintain more jobs, keeping more people employed, giving those people money to put back into the economy, etc. But people need to buy cars with money they've earned, not with debt or a handout, and they need to buy them responsibly. The clunkers piled up at dealerships are an example of the irresponsibility of automakers and consumers that worked for a few years but helped sink the industry -- and of the mentality that helped sink the entire country. The program designed to get rid of them is more of the same.

I'm not ignorant to capitalism and economy. I'm not saying that everyone should drive their car for 500,000 miles ... clearly that would render the industry dead and would take away some of the romance of car ownership (buying a car is in a way a right of passage). People have been buying new cars for decades. They have been driving, selling, parting out, and eventually crushing, cars, too ... I have no objection to this. But wastefulness and lack of foresight created a situation in which the system stopped working ... in addition to that, the American mentality that you "deserve" to retire when you're 50 as well as a manufacturing base that has moved out of our country and into China and Mexico added fuel to the fire. It didn't stop working because a few people got shy about spending money and just need a little cutesy push.

I thought it was cool that the BMW owner had some sentimentality and a sense of "why throw it away if it works?" Maybe it's the way I was raised. There's a time to retire an item and purchase a new one, or a nice used one if you like, whether it's a car, a TV or a pair of pants. You don't throw away a good pair of jeans because they're a year old and you "deserve" a newer, more stylish pair of jeans. That mentality has worked for me as far as financial stability. When something craps out, or really becomes inadequate, I'll go out and buy a quality item from a quality store (I'll pay more to buy it from a reputable, helpful store rather than buy it from some vague cyber discount bin). I never expect the government to pay me to do it.

Sorry if my post came off as implying that everyone who doesn't drive their car to 500k is an idiot. That wasn't my point. I know enough about capitalism to know that wouldn't work.

450slcguy · #2 08-02-2009, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BodhiBenz1987

I get more than you think I get. Throwing cash back into a failed infrastructure doesn't fix the problem. A debt-drenched economy will fail; it cannot sustain itself indefinitely. It has failed already and taking taxpayers' money and throwing it out there to entice the consumer base to go back to it's irresponsible spending habits of a glorious yesteryear does no good. Want people to buy stuff? Find a way to get them to produce stuff. I'm not against people buying new cars, by any means ... obviously when people buy new cars, the auto industry is able to maintain more jobs, keeping more people employed, giving those people money to put back into the economy, etc. But people need to buy cars with money they've earned, not with debt or a handout, and they need to buy them responsibly. The clunkers piled up at dealerships are an example of the irresponsibility of automakers and consumers that worked for a few years but helped sink the industry -- and of the mentality that helped sink the entire country. The program designed to get rid of them is more of the same.

I'm not ignorant to capitalism and economy. I'm not saying that everyone should drive their car for 500,000 miles ... clearly that would render the industry dead and would take away some of the romance of car ownership (buying a car is in a way a right of passage). People have been buying new cars for decades. They have been driving, selling, parting out, and eventually crushing, cars, too ... I have no objection to this. But wastefulness and lack of foresight created a situation in which the system stopped working ... in addition to that, the American mentality that you "deserve" to retire when you're 50 as well as a manufacturing base that has moved out of our country and into China and Mexico added fuel to the fire. It didn't stop working because a few people got shy about spending money and just need a little cutesy push.

I thought it was cool that the BMW owner had some sentimentality and a sense of "why throw it away if it works?" Maybe it's the way I was raised. There's a time to retire an item and purchase a new one, or a nice used one if you like, whether it's a car, a TV or a pair of pants. You don't throw away a good pair of jeans because they're a year old and you "deserve" a newer, more stylish pair of jeans. That mentality has worked for me as far as financial stability. When something craps out, or really becomes inadequate, I'll go out and buy a quality item from a quality store (I'll pay more to buy it from a reputable, helpful store rather than buy it from some vague cyber discount bin). I never expect the government to pay me to do it.

Sorry if my post came off as implying that everyone who doesn't drive their car to 500k is an idiot. That wasn't my point. I know enough about capitalism to know that wouldn't work.

This is program is not about you or me. It's about an economy that nearly collapsed and has of yet to recover. You can hide your head in the sand and let it collapse, as was done in the great depression, or you can offer loans and incentives to help save, stimulate and grow it.

The people who are able to take advantage of this program are not the ones who are in foreclousure, unemployed, or on welfare. If you applying for a car loan nowadays, your gonna need real good credit. Few if any banks are giving loans to people who can't afford them.

From what I've seen and read so far, the vast majority of qualifying cars in this program are past their practical lifespan in terms of mechanical reliability and/or fuel economy. Sure many could squeeze another year or two out of their old car, but in the end they'll be worthless and will need to be replaced.

Edward Wyatt · #3 08-02-2009, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 450slcguy

This is program is not about you or me. It's about an economy that nearly collapsed and has of yet to recover. You can hide your head in the sand and let it collapse, as was done in the great depression, or you can offer loans and incentives to help save, stimulate and grow it.

The people who are able to take advantage of this program are not the ones who are in foreclousure, unemployed, or on welfare. If you applying for a car loan nowadays, your gonna need real good credit. Few if any banks are giving loans to people who can't afford them.

From what I've seen and read so far, the vast majority of qualifying cars in this program are past their practical lifespan in terms of mechanical reliability and/or fuel economy. Sure many could squeeze another year or two out of their old car, but in the end they'll be worthless and will need to be replaced.

Just like 80% of the cars in our sigs.

The people who take advantage of this program might not be on welfare, but they are still taking a handout from the taxpayer just the same.

I haven't seen a car blown up on youtube that looked like a real clunker, in fact, most of them are nicer than many of our old clunker MB's.

450slcguy · #4 08-02-2009, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Wyatt

Just like 80% of the cars in our sigs.

The people who take advantage of this program might not be on welfare, but they are still taking a handout from the taxpayer just the same.

Unless you're real keen on unemployment, recession and possible depression, consider it the best investment the government can make for the recovery of our national economy.

Edward Wyatt · #5 08-02-2009, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 450slcguy

Unless you're real keen on unemployment, recession and possible depression, consider it the best investment the government can make for the recovery of our national economy.

Wow, I am impressed, did Obama tell you that?

Oh, my mistake, I suppose the auto makers can't give rebates or discounts without a socialist program that some claim to be an investment.

Who wins here? The dealer who pockets $3500 or $4500? or the consumer, who gets shafted by crooked dealers who inflate the price of automobiles in order to pocket the money?

I guess both do, because each gets a handout from the taxpayers.

What's next? Handouts for digital tv converter boxes? Oh wait, we already did that, and it was a drop in the bucket compared to the money the greedy and crooked auto industry is milking from the taxpayers.

450slcguy · #6 08-02-2009, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Wyatt

Wow, I am impressed, did Obama tell you that?.

No. I researched the issue and weighed the positives and negatives. Something you haven't done for yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Wyatt

Oh, my mistake, I suppose the auto makers can't give rebates or discounts without a socialist program that some claim to be an investment.

Your forgiven. If you haven't noticed, rebates and discounts have been abundant for several years. This is not a socialist program. It's a temprary stimulus incentive to revitialize the economy which nearly collapsed less than a year ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Wyatt

Who wins here? The dealer who pockets $3500 or $4500? or the consumer, who gets shafted by crooked dealers who inflate the price of automobiles in order to pocket the money?.

Everyone wins here.

The dealer does not pocket the money, it comes off the price of the car.

If you get shafted by the dealer your probably a complete idiot. One only needs to do 15 minutes of research to know the fair price for a car.

BodhiBenz1987 · #7 08-02-2009, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 450slcguy

From what I've seen and read so far, the vast majority of qualifying cars in this program are past their practical lifespan in terms of mechanical reliability and/or fuel economy. Sure many could squeeze another year or two out of their old car, but in the end they'll be worthless and will need to be replaced.

Well, this probably varies by area. A lot of the ones I'm looking at or reading about are nice cars. I mean, nice cars. Even the dealerships were saying amazed they were at how nice some of them were. Some of the cars had near zero purpose, but CFC made little distinction between worthless hunks of metal and a smoothly running Infiniti I30 with perfect leather (one that got turned in around here). Even if you're getting a gas-guzzler off the road, why are you throwing away perfect leather? Strip the parts and generate business for parts stores and repair facilities.

I agree with what you say as far as this being about the economy, but I said as much in my long reply to your first post about my not getting it. It is about the economy. My opinion, and it is an opinion, is that this is a poor answer that at best will just have no lasting effect on the automotive industry. It sold a few cars, but what did it do for the underlying problem? I guarantee you it won't get the Chrysler and GM plants that just closed near me up and running again. It really was almost a liquidation rather than a stimulus ... it cleared out a lot of inventory, which will be replaced. How are they going to sell the next batch when there aren't any clunkers left to be traded in? What's the permanent fix in this?

And it is, in a very small way, about you and I ... and everyone else who pays taxes. Anyone who pays taxes and votes has the right to laud or $^%& about any government program. My problems with the program are two-fold: I think it does nothing for the economy, and that is a legitimate complaint on my part. My other problem is just a personal rant: I'm bitter that my hard-earned money is going to reward people who bought inefficient cars, and the automakers that made them. If I thought it would help the economy at all, I could easily live with the second part.