When does the debt become important to you? - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

MS Fowler · #16 02-06-2010, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

Fortunately, I don't need to get elected. I put myself on a cash basis a long time ago; maybe the government needs to do the same?

That's part of the problem, why does SS need to be a separate fund so it shows up as part of the debt on paper? It's really nothing but an additional income tax and an entitlement program for geezers. It should be structured so a very small percentage of the geezers live long enough to collect; the eligibility age needs to be raised significantly.

Its not that simple. Part of the reasoning that set the ages where they did was to promote opening up positions in the job market. Get the old people out of the way for the young ones to get jobs.
How does government have any credibility to change the system so that fewer qualify for benefits. I've been making payments for 44 years, and now you want to say I can't get benefits? The money was not not a voluntary contribution; its was confiscated with the promise that the government would pay. If I lose my SS benefits, then a LOT of politicians better lose theirs, first.

daveuz · #17 02-06-2010, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

How are we defining "aid" by the way? From what I see, aid to say Haiti is a dead end. We aren't getting anything from them. "Aid" that is used to by influence or people into our way or thinking, is that considered aid also? Problem is the word "aid" is overused because we don't want to come to grips with the fact that we are doing this to get that. For instance, if we give a country "aid" but we get to use their harbors and ports, is that really "aid"? Sounds more like a barter or sale to me.

Define it anyway you want then go back to the question.

aklim · #18 02-06-2010, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

Fortunately, I don't need to get elected. I put myself on a cash basis a long time ago; maybe the government needs to do the same?

That's part of the problem, why does SS need to be a separate fund so it shows up as part of the debt on paper? It's really nothing but an additional income tax and an entitlement program for geezers. It should be structured so a very small percentage of the geezers live long enough to collect; the eligibility age needs to be raised significantly.

That is just it. You don't need to get elected. The officials do. Telling your son he cannot go out to play is not going to make you popular while taking him to his favorite eating place is. Remember when we were kids we didn't understand why that jerk who calls himself our father is giving us such grief for our actions and now we might understand why a little better? Same thing. Fathers are not elected, nor are mothers or kids would be voting for Grandpa and Grandma who gives them everything and never says no.

I think it should be abolished totally. What is it, if not a grand Ponzi scheme where the young workers (new customers) pay to the retired (old customers)? Even Madoff could not keep it going forever. And to those who say "Since you disagree with SS, don't take it when you are able", I say "Give me back what I paid into it with interest and I will relinquish all claims on it".

MS Fowler · #19 02-06-2010, 11:36 AM

We are "aiding" people with money we don't have.
At least the private aid is actually real money. Well not, really "real" money, but you know what I mean.

MS Fowler · #20 02-06-2010, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

And to those who say "Since you disagree with SS, don't take it when you are able", I say "Give me back what I paid into it with interest and I will relinquish all claims on it".

I've been making that offer for YEARS.
Not a chance of it happening.

aklim · #21 02-06-2010, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveuz

Define it anyway you want then go back to the question.

Before we can answer the question, we need to figure out what the definition of the word is. If you put giving to the United Way in the same category as giving money to others for your food, it might make things complicated. One is a purchase, the other a donation with little expected in return except a tax write off.

aklim · #22 02-06-2010, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

I've been making that offer for YEARS.
Not a chance of it happening.

What happened when the "old investors" wanted their money back in the case of Madoff and the "new investors" weren't so willing to part with their money?

#23 02-06-2010, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

Its not that simple. Part of the reasoning that set the ages where they did was to promote opening up positions in the job market. Get the old people out of the way for the young ones to get jobs.
How does government have any credibility to change the system so that fewer qualify for benefits. I've been making payments for 44 years, and now you want to say I can't get benefits? The money was not not a voluntary contribution; its was confiscated with the promise that the government would pay. If I lose my SS benefits, then a LOT of politicians better lose theirs, first.

That's part of the problem, the SS system was originally intended to get the geezers out of the job market an open up jobs for others (including returning veterans). I'm not sure that model makes sense anymore, the "retirement" ages for SS are much too young; the system is supporting many people for 20-30 years after they stop working. It makes more sense for the economy to support geezers by keeping them in the job market, than to pay them to sit home and watch the home shopping network for 30 years.

If we are not willing to get rid of the current SS system (which is what I would like to see happen), we either need to raise the age significantly (maybe by 10 years) and/or means test everyone. I've also been paying the maximum contribution for many years and I don't expect to see a dime, sorry about that. This is simply an entitlement program for a nonproductive portion of the middle class (geezer welfare). It needs to be fixed.

#24 02-06-2010, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

I've been making that offer for YEARS.
Not a chance of it happening.

I would be willing to walk away today and call it even, I will never see any money anyway. SS payments are just another tax.

aklim · #25 02-06-2010, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

If we are not willing to get rid of the current SS system (which is what I would like to see happen), we either need to raise the age significantly (maybe by 10 years) and/or means test everyone. I've also been paying the maximum contribution for many years and I don't expect to see a dime, sorry about that. This is simply an entitlement program for a nonproductive portion of the middle class (geezer welfare). It needs to be fixed.

How easy would it be for me to sell you on the idea that you should buy me a new car but you can't ride in it or use it except if your birthday falls on the 29 of Feb and it is a leap year ending in the number 0? Like all govt programs, it starts with a good intention and then morphs into something unrecognizable. Which is why I want as little govt intervention in my life. I cannot afford any more of their "help".

aklim · #26 02-06-2010, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

I would be willing to walk away today and call it even, I will never see any money anyway. SS payments are just another tax.

When investors walk away, the ponzi scheme collapses. Further to that, groups of people will suffer. Most notable are politicians who cannot tap into it as another cash pool.

#27 02-06-2010, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

How easy would it be for me to sell you on the idea that you should buy me a new car but you can't ride in it or use it except if your birthday falls on the 29 of Feb and it is a leap year ending in the number 0? Like all govt programs, it starts with a good intention and then morphs into something unrecognizable. Which is why I want as little govt intervention in my life. I cannot afford any more of their "help".

I agree, we need to kill it before it gets any worse; unfortunately, we are the generation that will get hosed when it goes away. Oh well, it's only money.

thayer · #28 02-06-2010, 11:57 AM

I'd like for there to be a line drawn in the sand regarding the definition of what government does. Once that is in place you can begin dismantling the things it shouldn't be doing. A good source for what the Federal government is responsible for is the constitution. "Any power not given to the federal government is the responsibility of the state"

Right now the Feds are sticking their authority in everything. Since when is the economy the government's job to fix?

I'd like for their to be a freeze on growth for everything except national security. (obviously no one would go for this). Stop hiring, do not replace retirees. Just reorganize as people retire. When there aren't enough people left to run certain programs, that program gets shut down. It is then up to the individual communities to take over those respective duties.

If someone was living on social security and absolutely can not do anything productive, it is then up to that person's family and the community to take over care of that individual.

daveuz · #29 02-06-2010, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Before we can answer the question, we need to figure out what the definition of the word is. If you put giving to the United Way in the same category as giving money to others for your food, it might make things complicated. One is a purchase, the other a donation with little expected in return except a tax write off.

Well feel free to define it anyway you want then see if you can answer the question.

#30 02-06-2010, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveuz

Who receives the most aid from the USA? Should that be cut off or reduced?

FWIW, here are some numbers; they are fairly small amounts and concentrated in parts of the world where the US thinks it has a "national interests." In other words, it's not primarily charity:

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s1261.pdf