First, I commend you for listening and/or reading from perspectives with which you clearly disagree. It indicates a certain open-mindedness. Unless, of course, it's only in order to find things about which to complain; then it would indicate some sort of pettiness.

I am, however, puzzled by the logic your comments take in this thread.

You begin by dismissing the statistic of 20% in poverty as the title of the thread. Do you disagree? Do you think there are more or less? Was the Annie E. Casey study somehow tainted by being reported about in the media? You did read the study and see that's 2009 data, right? So it's probably even higher now.

You select a quote from the article. In that quote a single mother describes her concerns about raising her child. Are those also not your own concerns when you wrote

Her concerns are for her child, not herself. In the past, perhaps, she was pre-occupied with self. Now she is seeking education, attempting to raise a child, devoting herself to another. Are these not values that you also propose? Did they come to her too late, and are therefore worthless? Is there a "you must be mature and responsible not later than age" after which you become worthless?

Is what you're doing in this thread the Christian thing, or the adult thing?

I recommend Matthew 7:1-5 for guidance.

Are you asking that people not disagree with you about an article that you linked to in OD? Really? I thought you put up the article as a "poster child" for your opinions in order to engage in an enlightening discussion. Is there something in the article that is not objective or fact based? Would a single 30 year old white male christian change your opinion? Okay, substitute those characteristics, now what? Is the poor white single dad christian still worthy of your scorn?

So you've studied educational methods then? A real pedagogue.

I do see some frequent posters in OD who are limited in discourse. The response above, for example, lacks structure and coherence. I doubt this would pass muster in a humanities course taught by a PhD. It might, however, fit on a picket sign.

Clearly you enjoy the exercise, because you engage so frequently. I do think you need more practice though. More flexing, more acknowledging. I would suggest, though, that perhaps the sensei has lost control of your dojo on more than one occasion.

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Well, isn't this fun.

1. I greatly doubt the accuracy of the data. What is called poor is highly subjective and contextual. It, like the VAST majority of studies down in the humanities is a thinly veiled propaganda piece pretending to be objective.

2. People who are not in a position to be able to raise children in a healthy loving manner should be dis-incentivized from pro-creating. Extending the largess that society does encourages more dysfunctionality.

3. Do you really want to discuss the dominant message of Christianity? The Sermon on the Mount which Jesus gave prior to his resurrection is intended to show the futility of trying to live by Mosaic law. It's purpose is to say, you are not able to fulfill what Moses commanded you and I tell you that if you want to repair your rupture with God the Law of Moses is not enough, this is what you must do to have a Law-based covenant. The purpose is to show that no one can succeed on that basis. Jesus, then offers a new way, His crucifixation and resurrection.

4. I do not care if that women or anyone else wears polka-dots and dances upside-down... Until she comes to me and says, "hey I, my parents, my community, the inane values from the PC culture are a mess -- I want you to pay for these errors." Ain't gonna happen.

Write more.

This is fun.

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I know a single mom who is thirty and has three kids. Sounds a lot like his example so far.

It so happens that she is divorced from a man who she was married to for seven years. He was a traditional christian so forbade her to work outside the home and she submitted.

Turns out he is an alcoholic and a controlling SOB. Her family silently hoped that she would get away from him but kept still for the most part.

Finally after listening to his lies about quitting drinking and enduring his womanizing and belittling of her she got the courage to divorce him.

So now here she is raising three lovely children and financially very vulnerable. She did manage to get a good job though and is now dating a man who treats her with respect.

Oh yes, and one more thing.....

Her children are my grandchildren.

__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

I suspect we can all tell those tales. I am very close with a former student. An exceedingly bright girl, member of an ethnic minority, who screwed up in her youth and had a child at 15 and another at 17. Her family unable to help, she existed and raised her kids on public assistance while attending junior college and working full time. She is now a lawyer who works for an agency that helps girls in the same position she was in. Without public assistance, she wouldn't have made it. An intellect wasted.
It's real easy for those who haven't suffered the indignity of public aid to scoff and pass judgement. The reality is much sadder, and much more complicated.
Simple minds seek simple solutions.

__________________
You're a daisy if you do.
__________________________________
84 Euro 240D 4spd. 220.5k sold
04 Honda Element AWD
1985 F150 XLT 4x4, 351W with 270k miles, hay hauler
1997 Suzuki Sidekick 4x4
1993 Toyota 4wd Pickup 226K and counting

Well said.

__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

Very well put. Some people find it much easier to judge especially if its not something they know personally. Unfortunately empathy doesn't come naturally to everyone.

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CENSORED due to not family friendly words

Excellent example of good use of public funds. The problem is that this is, it seems, not only not the norm, it is a highly rare case. What is the norm is for people to get on the dole and stay there, and then encourage their children to do the same, which begets more children to do the same. If we take all the people and money that goes down this hole and compare it to those that would "make it" without the government help- it begs the question- is it worth it? Could those same people as shown in this example make it with private non profit help? The answers to those questions boils down to individuals' answers- and my answer is the government use of my money is wasted by in large. It was not wasted on her, and so if we could give more money to private non profit help of our choice instead of the to the government we would have more control of it and get better results. Your choice is that my money- and perhaps yours- it best spent by the government, and my choice is that it is not. Yet you want to dictate to me how my money is spent- which I strongly disagree with. Why is it easy? Because we have made the hard decisions to forgo stupid courses of actions and become productive members of society? Why does not preclude empathy? Could it be because you assume? Are you also saying people who work hard and work smart and become productive members of society are simple minded? Isn't it the other way around- those that leech off society are simple minded? (and this example is is not a leech- she just needed a helping hand- not a permanent stipend)

Originally Posted by elchivito "... I suspect we can all tell those tales...."

Don't we all want these types of successes both for all who have slipped and for our tax dollars?

I contend the issue is more the overall consequences of our current policies and that there are far superior ways to accomplish shared goals.

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Originally Posted by elchivito ...
'It's real easy for those who haven't suffered the indignity of public aid to scoff and pass judgement. The reality is much sadder, and much more complicated. Simple minds seek simple solutions.'

Fail to see how examining social policy and economic economic consequences is being judgmental. Society, makes decisions, examines, evaluates, discusses, etc.

Your attempt to 'muzzle' my perspective, to reduce it to the level of the absurd or inane or reprehensible, doesn't address my comments. It just means you don't think much of me. Join the list.

Oh, you know nothing of my torturous journey. Assuming it to be one thing or another so you may argue thusly is indicative of 'Simple minds seek[ing] simple solutions.'

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I'm not attempting to muzzle anything, merely responding in my fashion. Once again we get a dose of your torturous journey and how nobody likes you and boo hoo. Discussion with you has too many conditions so I won't be doing it. I will however comment whenever and however I decide to within the guidelines set forth here. You have options if you don't like it.

__________________
You're a daisy if you do.
__________________________________
84 Euro 240D 4spd. 220.5k sold
04 Honda Element AWD
1985 F150 XLT 4x4, 351W with 270k miles, hay hauler
1997 Suzuki Sidekick 4x4
1993 Toyota 4wd Pickup 226K and counting

golf clap....

'course folks have no idea what someone else has been through.

Assuming such, basing your arguments on that assumption, etc could be called a simplification.

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For some reason I just had the mental picture of a dog chasing it's tail.

__________________
You're a daisy if you do.
__________________________________
84 Euro 240D 4spd. 220.5k sold
04 Honda Element AWD
1985 F150 XLT 4x4, 351W with 270k miles, hay hauler
1997 Suzuki Sidekick 4x4
1993 Toyota 4wd Pickup 226K and counting

The example was provided by MSNBC not me. Your quote should be, "sounds a lot like MSNBC example" but hey, let's not let accuracy get in the way.

Note clarity and objective use of words, this is a traditional Christian and by inference his Christianity is a reason he did what he did.

That's very sad.

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Who is responsible for me

1. Me
2. My parents
3. My community; defined by shared-values/activities/associations
4. My culture/society
5. My government

Now go through the list from 1 to 5 and determine where the breakdown(s) occurred.

After one address 1 through 4 then come take my money via the government in step 5.

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Uhhh...I believe he was referring to my hypothetical 30 yo white christian male, not the article's example. But hey, let's not let paying attention get in the way.

And for accuracy, it's actually an AP article hosted on MSNBC and
others, to include the UK's Daily Mail, and various and sundry independent sites. Must be that vast left wing conspiracy spreading propaganda again.

George Bernard Shaw had a nice quote about pigs and wrestling. But he was probably too liberal a source for your liking.

And I just learned that the "ignore" feature really is easy to use. On the User CP; Settings and Options.

You just found that.

Win a prize for the sharpest knife in the drawer.

Yep, repeat the same story in 10 different papers and then it MUST be true.

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