Originally Posted by 10fords (Post 2774059)

Tom- now that you no longer have the power to issue infractions to those who have a different view of union teachers than you, I will respond to your opinions. As a product of, and a parent of three children in the public school system I believe I have an informed view. First off- the teachers union does not exist for the benefit of the students. Nothing they do or stand for in any way helps to further the betterment of education. They are a left wing organization bent on imposing their agenda on the children, and enriching themselves at my expense while doing it. My kids go to one of the best public schools in the country, yet at the 10th grade level my daughter is doing work I did in the sixth grade. But she has learned a lot of things I wasn't taught; Global warming, gay rights, hate speech, American bad, everyone else good, etc..

Public education is under attack from the religous right? Are you serious? You make it sound like they don't want the kids to learn. What they don't want is a bunch of highly paid leftist indoctrinating the kids when they are supposed to be teaching them the three R's. For the record- kids who go to religous schools receive a vastly superior education than those from public schools. This was not true when I went to public school. The bottom line is; the system is broken. Kids are not receiving a quality education because the union teachers and administrators are not about doing what is right for the student, but what is right for their agenda and pocketbook. You can't convince me that an organization that would appoint Kevin Jennings as its "safe schools" czar has my kids education as their priority, and not a politically correct agenda. Yet they always want more money even though the districts that spend the most per pupil have the worst scores/ graduation rates!

All of what I wrote above certainly does not mean I think every union teacher is evil, or out to further the radical agenda, but unfortunately enough of them are to where they are the norm rather than the exception. I am in contact with, and friends and neighbors with a lot of my kids teachers, Sadly the ones who are truly interested in educating are retiring due to the hostile environment for those who don't follow the party line. Go to any school and look in the teachers parking lot and count the Obama bumper stickers versus the McCain ones and you will quickly see what side the teachers are on.

Originally Posted by t walgamuth (Post 2774008)

Being a member of the boomers, who supposedly had very good scores on college prep tests, I can say this:
1. My kids used to bring homework home that seemed to me as if they were doing things in junior high that I did in high school.

2. There is a lot of talk about dumbing down shools these days, which I find a lot of silly talk. see #1.

3. I went to an excellent small town school, Greencastle, which contained all the children of professors from DePauw university, most of whom were very very bright and very very focused on education.

4. I went to Ball State University to the Architecture school which is generally regarded as one of the top Architecture schools in the country.

5. My wife is a fourth grade teacher in Lafayette School Corporation.

6. I served for four years on the LSC school board.

7. Public education is currently under attack from the political and religeous right. At the moment, at least here in Indiana, the right is winning.

Why is public education under attack from the right?

Here are my opinons:
a. People on the right generally want to favor the people who already have money and power.
b. Public education is by far the most expensive item on our domestic budget.
c. The right wants to eleminate all unions, even though the teachers union is a pretty weak entity here in Indiana at least.

Personally? I came from a working class family who valued education. I have seven siblings. Without the pell grants and college loans I probably would have missed out on college.

I think public education is the backbone of our culture.

I think having the working class be financially successful enough to be middle class is what made our economy the envy of the world.

Are Unions inherintly good? Not necessarily. Are they inherintly bad? Certainly not. Unions provide protection to workers where it is needed. The law currently allows Unions to be formed whenever the workers at a place vote it to be so. That seems fair to me.

If a Union is not needed, great.

Education is expensive but it needs to be viewed as an investment not an expense.

I have had an excellent life which is based on the readily available public education that was present when I needed it. I am in favor of making these opportunities available to all children regardless of their race, ethnicity or financial background.

Our country has been doing that.

We should continue to do it.

Originally Posted by 10fords (Post 2773892)

X2- must have had a bad experience as an altar boy or something?

Originally Posted by 10fords (Post 2774211)

Apparently you have a short memory on both counts

Originally Posted by davidmash (Post 2774137)

Or possibly it was because you agreed with what was being taught. I know I did not. And I was not alone.

All I remember being taught/told was essentially that the USA was good, never did anything bad and that we were the savior of the globe. Gays were never even mentioned. Civil rights and slavery were a foot note in the history books. Native American history did not even get the foot note.

I would argue that at least in this regard, the US education system is vastly improved. Just my opinion but judging from most of your comments on the board if you are offended by some of what is taught, I think they are goig in the right direction.

Originally Posted by davidmash (Post 2774294)

I believe the things taught back then were closer in line with the ruling majority. From the sounds of it, you were part of that majority.

I was 6 and no preference for anything but watching TV and eating candy.

Kids are having sexual relations at ever increasing younger ages. Just say no has not, does not and will never work.

I do not agree. You've given up on an approach that I haven't. You're free to as am I do otherwise. If my schools also give up then I don't want to support them. Pretty straight-forward.


No idea what you are referring to as far as the social sciences are concerned.

Who do you think performs whatever analysis you use to provide whatever statistics to argue your point. A biased instructor in the social sciences.

Then have an open discussion with your kid about what they learned and present them with your point of view.

Children are impressionable and learn by external reinforcement.

Why it is that your view of homosexuality as being bad is more appropriate than my view of homosexuality as being OK?

Utter balder-dash. I never commented on the morality of homosexuality. You said gays were never mentioned to kids in school. I said so what. I'm thinking K-5. I'm not interested in them learning about cunninglingus or ménage à trois. They're kids, let 'em be kids.

Feel free to insert any other 'objectionable concept' such as evolution, climate change or what ever else you can come up with.

Originally Posted by sjh (Post 2774318)

The majority of what you taint me with I did not say.

However, the fact that I cannot express myself without being falsely categorized and not have my perspectives respected is another indicator of why I do not want to support public schools.

I have no problem with your views but you demonstrate an inability to allow mine to be treated courteously and considered.

You either ridicule or use fallacies.

.

Originally Posted by sjh (Post 2773337)

.

Our education system/philosophy is not working.

That is an opinion but I'll assume most will accept it.

I believe most will agree that 25, 50 or 100 years ago students graduated with a better grasp of what use to be called the "three r's".

Here's another issue, big problem:

Asians and whites do much better academically than Hispanics and blacks.

Our spending, social programs, political correctness (I'm not sure if this is relevant but put it here for completeness) and reverse discrimination policies are not making a dent. Some would argue they are hindrances. Some not.

So, using the structure of classical debate -

If one agrees that our current approach is not working do we increase those programs (which seems to be the goal of a segment of the nation) or do we pursue an alternative?

Oh, here's a link from the W Post giving some context -

Student Evaluations

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Originally Posted by t walgamuth (Post 2774154)

...
I'm pretty sure I never infracted anyone for disagreeing with me.;)

Originally Posted by sjh (Post 2774318)

The majority of what you taint me with I did not say.

However, the fact that I cannot express myself without being falsely categorized and not have my perspectives respected is another indicator of why I do not want to support public schools.

I have no problem with your views but you demonstrate an inability to allow mine to be treated courteously and considered.

You either ridicule or use fallacies.

.

Originally Posted by Botnst (Post 2774493)

That would of course, be your perspective. Wouldn't it?

Originally Posted by davidmash (Post 2774514)

It's not a matter of giving up. It is a matter of dealing with reality. The numbers show it does not work. US teen pregnancy is the highest in the waster nations IIRC.

Still no idea what you are talking about.

If you cannot have a discussion with your kid or if the external influences are stronger than your influences it strikes me that you might have a parenting problem or that your position is untenable.

Homosexuality is part of sexuality in general. Sexual activity is starting in 8th and 9th grade. I am pretty sure cunnilingus and ménage à trois are not taught in any sex ed class so I fail t see the relevance of that comment. Yes they are kids, and guess what. Hormones are part of kids chemistry. By 18, the guys hormones are at full speed and the genetic code is telling him to nail anything with a pulse. Telling a 18 yr old boy to just say no is just plain stupid. Some will, most will not and giving them the tools to not get a girl pregnant is a much wiser path. Or we can just continue down our current path of ignorance and have one of the highest rates of teen pregnancy.

OH cry me a river.

Bottom line is the US had been teaching your agenda for quite some time and you liked it just fine. Now your agenda s out of sync with more and more people and the segments of society who were neglected by your agenda are now speaking out. Your agenda is out of date, step aside or get run over. Your choice.