Jopa: fired
 

Sad.

Whatever the facts prove out, this is an ugly black mark on the end of a storied career.

After reporting it and testifying before a grand jury, what more did they expect of him?

Call the cops?

Are the news reports wrong? I have been under the opinion that he covered it up. Please enlighten me.

Yup. Thanks to Paterno's inaction, dating back to 1998 at the very least, more boys were raped and exploited. And apparently right on the Penn State campus. The fact that the university banned Sandusky from bringing boys onto the campus speaks volumes as does Sandusky's retirement in 1999, after being groomed to take over the program, while still in his 50's.

I'm afraid there's more to this sad story. I don't see how anyone can defend him in this case. He enabled a pedophile.

Primary and secondary teachers, administrators and coaches are required by law to notify the police or child protective services if they think abuse is taking place. There's no such requirement at the post-secondary level?

Anyone who works with children in any capacity in my church is required to take a training course that we put together to comply with state ( MD) regulations. While taking that course, I was surprised that anyone with ANY suspicion of child abuse has no discretion; they MUST report it to the police. Its not enough to report it to superiors in the organization. The report must be made to the police. My guess is that the law is the same in PA.

I can not fathom how that might not be the case. And I'm just guessing that it is since it's been mentioned a number of times that Paterno met his legal requirements (but obviously failed miserably on the moral or decency end).

Now it looks like the situation in Happy Valley might very well get a lot worse.

Jerry Sandusky Rumored to Have Been Pimping Out Young Boys to Rich Donors, Says Mark Madden

While I suppose it is still in rumor stage, keep in mind that Madden wrote an article back in April about the situation as it sits right now but got little to no coverage. 6 months later, that April article looks to be dead-on.

I was awaiting further clarification and an answer to my question to make sure that I do not opine while missing some of the facts.

If I understand correctly, Paterno KNEW about the activity and did not go past the President of the University.

IF this being my understanding of the issue, is correct, I believe that he should not only have lost his job, but also be prosecuted as an accessory. Had he done the right thing, at least some of these boys would have escaped this activity.

My opinions regarding gay activity are widely known by those frequenting this forum. Does anyone want to come and swack me down for wanting to protect these kids? This is a good example of some of the results of letting gay behavior be expanded in our society.

Kevlar on and ready.

Agreed. What a sad way to end a career. He should have notified the police.

So in your book homosexuality and pedophilia are the same? Very scary

Seems like he's already been tried and convicted in the court of public opinion.

But I'm not trying to defend him, and certainly not child molesters; there is nothing even neutral that can be said for such creatures.

My point, which seems to be lost in the rhetoric, is that we don't know all the facts. No one really does. And the real issue, at least to me, is what did Paterno KNOW and when did he know it?

The established facts are that he heard about the allegations second-hand. That is called "hearsay" and in our country it's not admissible in a court of law (for all sorts of good reasons designed to protect the process of a fair trial; basically, we want to hear from people with actual knowledge, not rumors repeated).

He relayed this information to his superiors, likely with the understanding that they would conduct a full and fair investigation. He later testified before a grand jury.

That's all a decade ago.

There is no state law that would require him to call the police; we're not talking about people working with children, we're talking about a subordinate of his alleged to have committed serious, ugly crimes. Legally, Paterno's clear. But that's not what we're discussing. We're discussing beyond that, what he *should* have done. And to me the first question in that realm comes right back to what did he ACTUALLY KNOW??

Kick it back the other way. There's someone you've known for years, worked with, good guy, never been an issue one way or the other, you'd probably consider him a friend. A third party comes to you with a story, ugly, horrific allegations of conduct that, if true, will destroy his career and family, and rightly so. But those SAME allegations will have much the same effect, even if they are NOT true. So you follow the chain and report what you have heard.

And if nothing comes of it, what is the proper course? To go ahead and call the cops? Remember, you don't have ANY actual knowledge, just something someone else said. Maybe they hate him, maybe they have a grudge...you don't know, right? So if you call the cops, you may destroy his career without any basis.


The point being...I don't know all of the facts, and neither does anyone else here. But it strikes me that there are too many ready and willing to kick him to the curb based on what they are assuming about what he knew, including the university, which now seems to be engaged more in a CYA witch hunt than any real interest in finding the truth.

Certainly, if Paterno had a meaningful reason to know what was going on (at least something more than the blind allegations of a third party), then everyone is right, he failed miserably. But even that has not been demonstrated, at least not in the reports blasting around the 'net.

And if Jopa actually did have a reason to know what Sandusky was up to, nothing in his history would suggest that he would have kept quiet. It just seems completely out of character to imagine him scheming in a back room to hush up over such horrible crimes just to protect the football program.


All I'm saying is, can't we just wait and see how the facts prove out before we tie him to a tree, disembowel him and let the birds peck out his eyes?

Come on TBO! You are WAAAaaaay smarter than this. If gay behavior had not expanded so much in the last few decades, there would be fewer people practicing it. With fewer practicing it, there are fewer to molest these innocent young boys.

You are correct about "us" knowing all the facts, but someone inside the University evidently knows them. This is why I was hesitant to say anything in my first post of this thread and why I predicated in my second.

And if we stopped sex altogether, there would be fewer men preying on innocent young girls if we go along with that vein. :rolleyes: Or do you have an explanation for men who go for underage girls?

X2 It's patently obvious that heterosexuals never rape so outlawing homosexuality is a simple solution to sexual coercion.

OTOH, we never heard about our friend Mike M. Why is that? Why did Mike not go report it himself since he saw the incident and let the cards fall where they may?

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...vkCe4AtioA2Eow

If hetero behavior had not expanded so much in the last few millennium, there would be fewer people practicing it. With fewer practicing it, there are fewer to molest these innocent young girls, rape women and commit other acts of sexual abuse against women.

Beat me to the punch! For that matter, what about men who abuse their own daughters? There are so many things wrong with equating homosexuality to pedophilia I thought Larry was joking for a minute.

FWIW I am not defending JoePa at all, I think he should have gone further with reporting as many others do. There is a small subset of PSU who are rioting at the moment, what idiots.

Did Paterno tell Mike to call the police?

And it's the American way, I suppose, now there are riots going on at Penn State over his being fired. {sigh}

Penn State trustees fire Paterno, students riot - College football- NBC Sports

As I said, outlaw sex altogether and you will stop fathers from having sex with their daughters. Better yet, there will be no kids for them to have sex with.

Perhaps so but maybe that student assistant should have reported it since he was a witness to the crime, assuming it was a crime being committed.

I'm so happy that at PSU land, they have solved all the major problems and now can tackle such minor problems :rolleyes:

What does it matter? Shouldn't Mike have simply called the police and let the cards fall where they may? Perhaps Mike was afraid of "rocking the boat" which might endanger his career.

If JoPa was responsible, Mike certainly should be as responsible, if not more.

I can't think of ANYTHING more important than calling the police or otherwise ENSURING that this sicky never molested another boy. Fear of losing a career is no excuse.

Not nearly so bad are those of you who condone any gay behavior, but it is still very sad. I feel sorry for you.

Agreed. I can't imagine why any of them wouldn't call the police unless they were either close friends of the perpetrator or afraid of damaging Penn State's reputation.

Not saying it is an excuse but it might be why he didn't do what he did. People do that all the time. Take care of #1. And it worked, didn't it? He didn't get hardly mentioned at all. It is how life is. I am not surprised at that any more than I am surprised at the sun rising in the east.

Perhaps we don't feel that we need to shackle ourselves stupidly to some superstitious mumbo jumbo. Another thing is maybe, just maybe, your sympathy isn't necessary or worth much. Will your being sorry do anything? Nope.

Why did the RC church do what it did in spite of all the lip service they paid to telling the truth and damn the consequences? Same thing. Protect themselves. Such a scandal can't be good for anyone's career so sweep it under the rug and hope it goes away till they are gone. Why would you expect more of them?

I see where you're coming from Aklim, and unfortunately you are absolutely right. It's me, me, me in today's world. Sad but true.

Sorry to burst your bubble but it has always been that way. It is just more apparent today but mankind has always been taking care of what they want first.

I mainly feel sorry for the gay people who are the subjects of such preposterous discourse. Luckily I am not the victim of it. I couldn't help but notice you ignored the numerous objections to your "argument" as well.

Yes, I ignored them. I just consider the source of them.

As long as it doesn't poke holes in your theory, that is.

:D:D nicely done

step 1: produce ridiculous nonfactual argument
step 2: challenge others to dispute it
step 3: ignore all refutations despite logic
step 4: ????
step 5: profit
step 6: declare argument holds water
step 7: repeat

Yes, it is indeed a theory. It couldn't be anything else just like those who disagree with it only have their own theories to back up their beliefs.

http://facepwn.com/posters/it's%20a%20trap.jpg

Classic . . . LB will no doubt criticize everyone for having a theory without facts or proof; then will fail to produce his facts or proof when other's respond to his challenge.

If someone actually KNEW, I agree with you.

HOWEVER, a potentially slanderous report from someone else is NOT knowledge, it's unfounded allegation. Calling the cops at that point might be reckless or worse, you have to look at all of the circumstances.

As I said, if Jopa actually knew something and did nothing more than report it, it's reprehensible. But if not, there is no reason to repeat slanderous, damaging rumors, to the police or anyone else.

And that's the whole point. When you hear some slanderous thing about someone, how far are you expected to go with it? Apparently PS had some manner of procedure in place, and it seems Paterno followed through with that by forwarding what he had heard (again, not his own actual knowledge, just what he heard). Are you saying it was not reasonable for him to assume that the superiors would follow through to be sure it wasn't anything more than an ugly allegation? If nothing came from it, it seems he might have reasonably concluded that there was nothing to it beyond a vicious slur against a coach.

I pointed this out a few posts ago, but for YOU I will do it again. I was clear in PREDICATING my response.

IF he saw it or knew for sure it happened, he should NOT have stopped until the perpetrator was stopped. Period. If the facts are that he did NOT know for sure, then that is something different.

As I said. I just consider the source of the background noise.

If only everyone could be as disciplined as you are to provide all the facts with justification. What a world it would be

And I was clear in agreeing with you -- albeit under discreet facts that we simply don't know.

Which has been and remains my entire point in this whole thread.

Most people are running off and ready to string him up...without knowing the facts.

And while we should be ever-vigilant and protective of children (no one disagrees on that point, right?), it is nevertheless very sad that so many people are ready to jump on that "crucify Paterno" bandwagon...without any actual knowledge of the facts.

Which is analogous to Iran immediately assuming the three hikers were American spies and basically kidnapping them for ransom. Is not our society better than that? Can't we at least let the facts develop?

I sure wouldn't bet any money that everyone agrees with you as related to the first part of your fourth paragraph. That's the saddest thing of all. There might be one wishing he was joining them in that shower.

What is the downside to alerting the police? They find nothing and go away?

It's a moot point anyway, Paterno did know. McQueary (the current WR coach then coaching assistant), according to his own grand jury testimony, walked in on Sandusky having anal sex with a young boy in the shower. McQueary walked out, called his father and asked his father what to do. His father told him to get out of there. He later told Paterno what he saw. Paterno admits that McQueary told him something, he just doesn't recall if it was "fondling, touching or horsing around." Bottom line is Paterno knew Sandusky was naked in the showers with a young boy and chose not to alert the police. Or, if you take Paterno at his word that he did what was required by reporting it to the administration, how does he not follow up on that to see if anything came of any investigation? How does anyone just drop it all together and continue on, with Sandusky visiting the facilities on a regular basis, like nothing every happened?

And somehow or another, that spineless P.O.S. McQueary will be coaching on the sidelines as Penn State takes on Nebraska. It's beyond me how the f--- that can be allowed to happen.

Weird, ain't it? Paterno gets burned for not reporting hearsay to the police and McQueary, the real witness to the act gets off clear and free although he didn't report it to the cops either.

But we do have the Grand Jury Presentment. The entire document in pdf form is on MSNBC right now.

It's very graphic and precise.

Why so much concern about the rush to judgement of Paterno?

Where is your outrage about the victims?

Paterno and other officials at Penn State did the absolute minimum.

The red-headed guy, McQueary, then a graduate assistant, witnessed Sandusky’s rape of a young boy in a shower room of the football facility in 2002. He witnessed the 10 year old being anally raped.

And not only did he not stop it, he left. Just skedaddled. Think about that for a minute. A kid is getting assaulted, and with a hopeful heart he sees someone who might be able to help him. And the guy leaves.

Why should we expect more? Sandusky was a somebody, McQueray was a nobody. Why risk his own skin and career to go against Sandusky? Just report it to the boss and let it die.

Here is the question. What is McQueray LEGALLY expected to do? Report it to Paterno or the cops?

I don't know how the law applies to him, but I find it morally reprehensible and unconscionable.

I would think it does apply to him. I believe teachers and nurses are required to report any suspicion of abuse to the cops. No ifs, ands or buts. We might be BFF but if I hear of it as a teacher even via what somebody else wrote, I have to send it off. I believe there was a case like that a few years back.

and apparently employed at this time. Guess that he did succeed in looking after #1

Does anyone know why this indictment is for acts committed so long ago? Why did they not bring it YEARS ago, and save some of the victims?

I think it came to a head on 2008 according to the timeline

Sandusky abuse claims date back to 1994, grand jury says - CNN.com

2006 or 2007 -- A wrestling coach at the high school where Sandusky was volunteering allegedly surprises Sandusky and the boy "lying on their sides, in physical contact, face to face on a mat" in a cramped weight room. Sandusky jumps to his feet and told the coach the two were just working on wrestling moves, the coach later recalls in grand jury testimony. As time goes on, Sandusky allegedly begins to spend more time with the boy, taking him to sporting events and giving him gifts, including golf clubs, a computer, cash and clothes. During this period, according to the grand jury report, Sandusky allegedly performs oral sex on the boy more than 20 times, and the boy performs oral sex on him once.

2008 -- The boy breaks off contact with Sandusky. Later, his mother calls the high school to report her son had been sexually assaulted and the principal bars Sandusky from campus and reports the incident to police. In grand jury testimony, the principal, Steven Turchetta, recalls Sandusky's behavior as suspicious, and said Sandusky was often "clingy" and "needy" when a student no longer wanted to spend time with him. The ensuing investigation reveals 118 calls from Sandusky's home and cell phone numbers to the boy's home.

I forgot step 8: maintain homophobic persona by cracking an incredibly distasteful joke about a real crime involving real victims.

I am being light with "distasteful", especially someone who claims to be morally right and preaches constantly about how everyone else is "wrong". You sure are a great example!

Back on topic, I am with Suginami, absolutely sickening how this guy just let that happen and barely did anything. Its not like those were two grown men canoodling (I would guess doing that in a locker room shower is probably against the rules too?), this was nonconsensual ABUSE of a young child. And the guy just walks away...should walk right into prison.

Here's part of the reason:
DA who didn't charge Sandusky missing since '05 - US news - Crime & courts - msnbc.com

Maybe Sandusky killed him.

Sorry for this tasteless attempt at humor.;).;...unless it turns out to be true.