VW Diesels

[Grzpdlr]

The amazing thing is these cars aren't awaiting the crusher or a fix for the emissions problem, they are to be shipped to somewhere with less stringent emission standards.


https://qz.com/1241214/photos-volkswagen-has-bought-back-thousands-of-diesel-cars-in-the-us-heres-what-that-looks-like/

[cornemuse]

Whats amazing about this? They meet the standards elsewhere, only difference elsewhere, they're used cars, , , , ,

(I would assume they sell them as used)

[Grzpdlr]

Originally Posted by cornemuse

Whats amazing about this? They meet the standards elsewhere, only difference elsewhere, they're used cars, , , , ,

(I would assume they sell them as used)

Probably conforms to the letter of the law but certainly not to the spirit of the law.

[JB3]

Originally Posted by Grzpdlr

The amazing thing is these cars aren't awaiting the crusher or a fix for the emissions problem, they are to be shipped to somewhere with less stringent emission standards.


https://qz.com/1241214/photos-volkswagen-has-bought-back-thousands-of-diesel-cars-in-the-us-heres-what-that-looks-like/

The amazing thing is you believe that even though its been specifically forbidden by the court and well documented.

The cars must be brought up to US emission standards, or destroyed. They cannot be shipped out of the country and resold unchanged.

[t walgamuth]

Originally Posted by JB3

The amazing thing is you believe that even though its been specifically forbidden by the court and well documented.

The cars must be brought up to US emission standards, or destroyed. They cannot be shipped out of the country and resold unchanged.

...and is that by law or some agreement between VW and the EPA?

[JB3]

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

...and is that by law or some agreement between VW and the EPA?

Court settlement so by law.
All these documents are publicly available, there was some fudging of acceptable standards for VWs benefit, but they cant be shipped out of the country unmodified.

That is exactly why they are all sitting there still. Otherwise they would be gone by now

[Idle]

I read somewhere they could sell the cars if they can be bought up to code, so to speak.

But to do so will they still be something people want to buy? Folks bought these for all sorts of reasons, mostly MPG. But if they can't deliver on the MPG will they still be purchased?

VW will have to reprogram each car since this is a software thing, but will they then have to sell them for 50% of what they are worth? Or will they be more in line with the used price of a gas VW?

[Air&Road]

VW ran a scam, deceiving the EPA and their customers. I hope they lose their butt on these cars. I expect that they are not serious polluters, but when you practice to deceive, you should be prepared to suffer the consequences. I hope they have to crush them all at. Serious expense. I have no tolerance for dishonest people or organizations. If they go broke tomorrow, I will shed no tears. If any other company tries this kind of deceit, I hope they get caught and go broke too.

[t walgamuth]

Originally Posted by Air&Road

VW ran a scam, deceiving the EPA and their customers. I hope they lose their butt on these cars. I expect that they are not serious polluters, but when you practice to deceive, you should be prepared to suffer the consequences. I hope they have to crush them all at. Serious expense. I have no tolerance for dishonest people or organizations. If they go broke tomorrow, I will shed no tears. If any other company tries this kind of deceit, I hope they get caught and go broke too.

so you like the epa standards?

[Grzpdlr]

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

so you like the epa standards?

Well in this case California AQMD said the road test NOX was 40 times the static test so it's pretty dirty.

[my83300cd]

I lived overseas a lot when I was young.
Other countries did not have 'sell by dates' on products. Used to see lots of expired US products for sale.
My understanding from a TDI owner that took the trade on her old car for a new Passat diesel was that VW is repairing and then going to resell used cars, that they just dont have the staff to bang them out fast enough.

[TimFreeh]

Originally Posted by Grzpdlr

Well in this case California AQMD said the road test NOX was 40 times the static test so it's pretty dirty.

I know there are a lot of people around here that just want to yell 'cheater, cheater, cheater' and fine VW out of business and I certainly don't condone what VW did but don't you think you need to get a little more info/background before your throw around the 40 times dirtier comment? Think maybe it might need some clarification?

I don't know what the 'static test' is and I'm not much up on the specific procedures used in EPA testing but the amount of pollution that's going out the tailpipe is directly proportional to the amount of throttle the user is requesting with their foot. On the face of it I don't find it at all remarkable that in some facets of operation a fully certified EPA car in the real world would emit 40X the amount of pollution that it did on a test stand. A car in steady-state cruise at 30MPH is going to emit a lot less crap than one run at wide open throttle up a hill for example.

I own two of the apparently 'cheating' Mercedes diesels, I have no idea if they are part of the 'cheating' scheme but I can tell you that from my perspective they seem to be pretty damn clean. These are the first Diesels I've ever owned that emit NO perceptible smoke even under extended full throttle applications at night and you never even smell the tell-tale diesel exhaust scent unless you get on your knees and stick your nose directly into the tailpipe. Seems to me like some people around here want to leave the impression that the 'cheating' diesels are rolling coal and emitting clouds of illegal smoke? Not true.

How much of the '40x' increase in apparent emissions is due to 'cheating' vs the parameters of operation when the on-the-road readings were taken?

Have the researchers tested a non-cheating car diesel car under the same circumstances to see if the pollution dropped to acceptable levels? Is here even a published EPA spec at the same conditions the readings were taken?

Have the researches done instrumented tests on gasoline powered cars under the same conditions to see how their emissions compare to test standards?

Seems like some of the questions I'd want to have answered before I started the 'cheating, cheating, cheating' mantra is I was interested in a fair presentation of the associated issues.

[t walgamuth]

Originally Posted by TimFreeh

I know there are a lot of people around here that just want to yell 'cheater, cheater, cheater' and fine VW out of business and I certainly don't condone what VW did but don't you think you need to get a little more info/background before your throw around the 40 times dirtier comment? Think maybe it might need some clarification?

I don't know what the 'static test' is and I'm not much up on the specific procedures used in EPA testing but the amount of pollution that's going out the tailpipe is directly proportional to the amount of throttle the user is requesting with their foot. On the face of it I don't find it at all remarkable that in some facets of operation a fully certified EPA car in the real world would emit 40X the amount of pollution that it did on a test stand. A car in steady-state cruise at 30MPH is going to emit a lot less crap than one run at wide open throttle up a hill for example.

I own two of the apparently 'cheating' Mercedes diesels, I have no idea if they are part of the 'cheating' scheme but I can tell you that from my perspective they seem to be pretty damn clean. These are the first Diesels I've ever owned that emit NO perceptible smoke even under extended full throttle applications at night and you never even smell the tell-tale diesel exhaust scent unless you get on your knees and stick your nose directly into the tailpipe. Seems to me like some people around here want to leave the impression that the 'cheating' diesels are rolling coal and emitting clouds of illegal smoke? Not true.

How much of the '40x' increase in apparent emissions is due to 'cheating' vs the parameters of operation when the on-the-road readings were taken?

Have the researchers tested a non-cheating car diesel car under the same circumstances to see if the pollution dropped to acceptable levels? Is here even a published EPA spec at the same conditions the readings were taken?

Have the researches done instrumented tests on gasoline powered cars under the same conditions to see how their emissions compare to test standards?

Seems like some of the questions I'd want to have answered before I started the 'cheating, cheating, cheating' mantra is I was interested in a fair presentation of the associated issues.

Yes, good post Tim.

[Mxfrank]

Originally Posted by TimFreeh

I know there are a lot of people around here that just want to yell 'cheater, cheater, cheater' and fine VW out of business and I certainly don't condone what VW did but don't you think you need to get a little more info/background before your throw around the 40 times dirtier comment? Think maybe it might need some clarification?

I’m not sure what would prompt you to spend so much effort to flaunt ignorance. So let’s review what actually happened. A researcher at (of all places) U of West Virginia set out to prove that “clean Diesel” cars performed as advertised in the real world. As exhaust analyzer was rigged to fit in the trunk, and performance was measured under real road conditions. The surprise result was that NOx levels were 40x the EPA limit. The results were checked and rechecked by the University, CARB and the EPA. They considered the possibility that the EPA rolling road test was somehow flawed or miscalibrated. Eventually, they discovered that VW’s ECU microcode would only engage the pollution systems when the steering angle sensor and wheel speeds were consistent with a rolling road test. It was an outright fraud, even VW admitted it. This was all over the press as well as the tech journals, so go find a link and read.

As for the rest of your nonsense: NOx is odorless and colorless, you won’t see it, no matter how hard you look. The VW controversy triggered researchers to check other makes, which is how the Mercedes problem was found. The EPA will probably revise testing procedures after CARB does the hard work of developing new standards. All the relevant pollution limits are embedded in CARB or EPA rules, which are public record.

[Mxfrank]

Originally Posted by Air&Road

I have no tolerance for dishonest people or organizations. If they go broke tomorrow, I will shed no tears. If any other company tries this kind of deceit, I hope they get caught and go broke too.

Hold that thought:


https://phys.org/news/2018-06-germany-recall-daimler-cars-europe.html