Obviously you do not know how to read very well. There is no need for an additional #10 ground. The already equipped neutral is enough.



It is good advice. Are you really an electrician?

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Eugene

10 E63 AMG
93 300te 4matic
07 BMW X3
14 Ford F-150 Fx2

There is no neutral in his existing wiring to the stove, which is what set off this whole pissing match about how guys who do electrical for a living are idiots compared to guys who sell used toasters. If Sunedog where to follow your "expert" advice, not only would any 120v devices on his stove not work, there would be no grounding to the appliance to prevent someone from being electrocuted.

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1984 300TD 1981 240D

If everything worked before the wire burnt, why would'nt it work now after he simply repairs the broken wire?

Cut it out with the name calling. How old are you?

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Eugene

10 E63 AMG
93 300te 4matic
07 BMW X3
14 Ford F-150 Fx2

Get a room, lovers. (Actually don't -- you're cheap entertainment.)

Another factually incorrect statement from the supposed "electrician".

Hey DB, the 120V devices on his stove worked fine for the past 20 years using the ground conductor as the neutral. The appliance is grounded to the grounding conductor and said grounding conductor functions as both the neutral and the ground. Not currently to code but you'd be hard pressed to develop a scenario whereby the stove is unsafe.

That's not Tudor City is it? There was a Con Ed Generating plant on 1st Ave that was demo'ed in 2005-2007 (Huge coal vaults under 1st avenue as I recall). I was in the 67th st Con Ed Steam plant last year and the south half used to be the IRT Power station for the 2nd and 3rd Avenue elevated subway. the amount of outmoded Generating equipment still on site is amazing.

I got a private tour of the Chrysler Building last year and got up into the Tower above the Chrysler club rooms. When we looked at the elevator motors, they were the originals! The owner had bought a second set from a building in Chicago that was being demolished and they are kept in readiness if needed. they also have 30,000 of the original face bricks in storage for use during any exterior work.

I should be getting a private tour of the Empire State building this summer.

OK, question: When was the last Coal Fired Boiler providing heat and hot water to a NYC School shut down...?

trying to decide if I should butt into this debate...

lots of hubbub between members, and lots of insults are being tossed around...

even at the meter panel, (this is not correct language btw... the METER panel has no ground in it... the meter panel feeds phases, and NEUTRAL to the main panel, where Ground is introduced to the Neutral circit, and it becomes a GROUNDED conductor) NEUTRAL and Ground are not the same, they are however connected.
the reason for the connection is to GROUND the Neutral... because copper and aluminum wire have resistance in them, and grounding the circuits balances this.
in an appliance, attaching the ground to a neutral or a neutral to a ground is not wise. because it puts a potentially bare conductor into the power circuit...
it has nothing to do with potential additional devices on a circuit. it has to do with preventing death in the event of an appliance failure.
PURE 240v single phase appliances are indeed totally legal and safe having two hot legs, and the ground. there is no unbalanced loads, and nothing is looking for a neutral.
like stated above, anything with ANY 110v neutral path devices in it, needs BOTH a neutral and a ground for ultimate safety...
if the appliance is old enough to not have a separate ground circuit, it may not have any 110v circuits. the white conductors in the picture make me think it does.
electrically to the clock/light/110v socket, ground will work as well as neutral, it's just not correct, or ultimately safe.
lets say, the stove has a socket in it's panel like many old ones do, and a light in there as well... ok, lets say the insulation on either circuit wears out, and you are now returning the path of the device through the cabinet of the stove, and lets also say the floors are wood, and it's summer time, and the humidity level is high... or a spill from a leaking sink has the floor just barely damp...
cooking in the kitchen in bare feet, you are grounded to the water pipes/etc... you lean into the stove for some skillet fanciness, and lets say the corroded conductor on your stove has eaten the bare wire that's been providing neutral for so many years... so it's not attached to the ground any longer... guess where the 110v circuits are getting their neutral...

However, I am not an electrician. I do work for a couple, and I've studied the NEC... this is how it's been explained to me by instructors. I'll happily retract any statements I've posted here if more experienced electricians point it out.

insurance companies push the codes, and safety is the key...

I also noticed that the thread title states there is a short, when in fact, there is an open...

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John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
1987 300TD
1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere!

Let's try and make the largest stretch of our imagination that we possibly can to come up with a scenario whereby the homeowner dies...........

However, in your wild scenario, you don't quite meet the bar of death to the homeowner. Know why?

Because once you lose the neutral all the 110V devices on the stove do not function anymore and you'd more than likely get rid of the stove or fix the problem. If the insulation on one of the power leads wears and the power lead touches the cabinet, you almost surely get a trip in the breaker due to the ground fault provide the neutral was in place.

Your scenario only works if the combination of a worn power lead, the power lead touching the chassis, and the loss of the neutral................all at the same time.

It's technically correct, but very, very unlikely.

no, I didn't mean the hot legs touched the cabinet, I meant that tying the neutral and the ground together in a cabinet with 110v components, if as in the picture at the first post, the ground conductor gets corroded and is not providing continuity, the cabinet can choose your body for a neutral path.

agreed, it's very unlikely, but insurance companies don't want to pay anybody... so the safety rules look for problems like this one.

__________________
John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
1987 300TD
1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere!

If the hot leg(s) are properly insulated and do not touch the cabinet, how will the current pass through your body...........even if the neutral (ground) is compromised?

Your scenario only works if you have simultaneous failures of the hot (contacts cabinet) and the ground (corroded off the stove terminal).

If the current draw between legs is unequal, the center tap (read neutral) will no longer be at zero volts. Since the burners run on the 240 (between legs), this is also unlikely to cause enough of an imbalance to kill someone, but it's possibly I suppose.

There is no connection between the neutral and either of the hot leads when using 240V. If it were not for the clock and the timer, you could take the neutral away and the stove wouldn't know the difference.

The two legs are 180 out of phase from each other..........the current draw is dependent on the voltage difference between them and has nothing to do with the neutral (240V operation).