I respectfully disagree with that.

Those are race cars that often time have a minimal weight to compete. they often include ballast weights to bring it up to minimum weight. they also use race tires as well as a lot of aero dynamic tricks. This cannot be compared to street cars.

Also i believe there is a limit on the engine type, but not the HP so its drive trainloss can be negated.

with the same minimum weight (1415lb) the AWD car theoretically will turn/brake and accelerate as fast as the RWD car (assuming race tires have the grip necessary for both). with the added benefit of possibly gaining any additional traction on loose surfaces.

In this specific example it does not include any of the downfalls of a typical AWD street car.

I never believed AWD to provide more grip, the handling at and over the limit are different and you get on the throttle at a different time. personally to me the downfall has always been the weight associated with them.

since you autocross - i also had a 99 miata which i miss everyday!!

S2000's dominated Bstock, same class as the Subaru WRX STI's. despite having AWD and more HP. but in BSP where they can crank up the HP and add a lot of tires they dominate - however i think S2000's are in A Stock now?

now i have been at an event where it rained half way through and all the AWD cars were dominating.

i dont mean to be rude or anything, I also agree with everything Brian said, i just want to bring some real world examples.

__________________
198? 300D ???K - Future DD
1989 300TE 285K - traded in '12
1984 300SD 186K - Sold in 08
1978 300SD 330K - Died in 05

I guess you have not noticed how the Subies dominate the stock classes they run in. Heck they aren't even very well balanced, very nose heavy. If they were balanced theyd be even faster. I am not aware that any subies fit into BS or AS and run head to head with s2000s. It may be different other places but I doubt it.

At Indy in the late sixties the stp turbine cars ran 4wd. Their cars were heavier and had less horsepower than the other cars and (I just read an interview with Parnelli Jones yesterday in Racer magazine) the gearing was such that he ran out of acceleration about half way down the straightaways. He made it up in the turns. That was in 1967. They ran the tires on all four wheels that the rear drivers ran on the rear.

For 1968 Lotus designed all new four wheel drive cars which were lighter and (if possible) handled even better) but USAC limited the intake size and restricted them to the smaller tires on all four wheels that the rwd cars ran on the front, hoping to make them uncompetitive. They made up some of the lost power by running white gas instead of jet fuel and still dominated the race.

After that usac reduced the intake even more... effectively banning turbines, and later went so far as to outlaw 4WD altogether when folks started showing up with it in piston engine machines.

4wd was banned in every major form of racing it was introduced in because it effectively made all the 2wd cars obsolete.

I suspect the ruling bodies also may feel it is more boring since with the added stability there are not as many crashes.

__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

like i said, Subaru WRX STI and S2000 run in B Stock

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/assets/2013%20Stock%20by%20manufacturer.pdf

the national results shows that ALL rankings are by lightweight RWD cars. top 8 are S2000's. are you going to tell me that ALL of the Subaru STI's decided they are going to skip this class or that you were wrong about subaru's dominating the class they are in?

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/assets/results/2012%20Solo%20Nationals%20Final%20Results.pdf

i don't think i can comment much on this as it was way before my time, and these are far from street cars. sounds like the car in your first example was geared lower than the rest to make up for the weight and HP difference? also you said it ran all 4 tires the same as the RWD ran in its rear? so it would have more rubber under it? depending on the course and how much are straight and how complex the turns are this may be good or bad.

I tried convincing my coworkers about this, and you are much older and wiser than them so i don't think i am going to convince you in your life time.

a tire, no matter on which end of the wheel can only do 100% of 1 thing, do you want to stop, go or turn? you cannot stop and turn at the same time and expect 100% stop and turning. To me what some pro-awd people thinks that the front driving wheels somehow negate this fact and let the front tires perform @ 125%

Do you at least agree that a lighter car will perform better than a heavier car? (you have to this is the basis for autocrossing!) and that an AWD drive drain typically add weight to a car? and that an AWD drive train has more drivetrain loss?

__________________
198? 300D ???K - Future DD
1989 300TE 285K - traded in '12
1984 300SD 186K - Sold in 08
1978 300SD 330K - Died in 05

Don't waste your time on this. The people arguing with you do not understand the physics and do not want to understand the physics. They simply want to argue their autocross experiences, which are all well below the cornering limits because they are not (probably cannot) be skilled enough to keep the tires at the cornering limits at all times. This is also due to widely varying friction conditions on a millisecond basis.

The only way to make the argument is on dry pavement with constant friction. If they agree to discuss with that as a premise, then the physics can be applied uniformly and the answer will be obvious.

Anything else is a waste of time.

You guys have dreamed up some theoretical scenario which cannot be duplicate in the real world. In the real world 4wd rules racing when it is legal. Show me scientific proof I am wrong.

__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

Great job of research and presentation, Rick.

if this is not real racing then maybe look up ANY race track record.

VIR
Virginia International Raceway lap records - FastestLaps.com

HMM top 10 track times only 2 are AWD, they must have forgot to turn off the physics, of the top 100 only 23 are AWD.

laguna seca
Laguna Seca lap records - FastestLaps.com
top 10 track times only 1 is AWD, of the top 100 only 12 are AWD

same story with willow springs
Willow Springs lap records - FastestLaps.com

you would think that with SUCH a HUGE AWD benefit, they would be lining up on the top there.

__________________
198? 300D ???K - Future DD
1989 300TE 285K - traded in '12
1984 300SD 186K - Sold in 08
1978 300SD 330K - Died in 05

check out STU. the winner is a bmw but all the rest are subies and Mitsubishi 4wd.

as for the other tracks, look at positions ten and eleven at laguna and you find the Nissan STR (or whatever the letters are) which is four wheel drive and certainly not in the leage of Ferraris, vipers and such. Its basically a sedan with a big motor and FWD. Audi Quattro too with a little sedan like 4.2 liter motor. Not really apples to apples is it?

the Indianpolis 500 was the perfect showcase since there were no weight limits, or such back in 67. With less power the STP car blew off all comers until it broke a minor part near the end. I am not familiar with the model designations but Lambo, Ferrari and Porsche all offer 4WD high performance variations which are great athletes....

__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

Ned took care of that perfectly.

You are wrong and you have always been wrong. With constant friction and an expert driver, the 2wd vehicle always wins.

If you're subpar or you have subpar friction (varying condition), you'll find that 4wd will help you.

You have already experienced this on your dirt tracks..........so all the data correlates.

And you're that expert driver?

__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.