Heaven, Hell and the Devil - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

chilcutt · #1 06-28-2013, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martureo

I'll take this last bit of dishonesty and misrepresentation as my cue to leave. Go to your local bookstore.

Good bye.

Promise?
You have ran this game before.

martureo · #2 06-28-2013, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilcutt

Promise?
You have ran this game before.

I promise not to talk to JB3 on this topic again.

Is that clear enough for you?

JB3 · #3 06-28-2013, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilcutt

Promise?
You have ran this game before.

apparently its personal. Shame, was an interesting discussion, but I guess its only interesting from his end when he is berating his opposition, not when hes caught in a contradiction.
the funny thing is that he could easily admit to the contradiction and the conversation could continue, but apparently hes angry about it. Too bad. Id love to talk about carbon dating and dinosaurs with pastor M.

JB3 · #4 06-28-2013, 04:12 PM

first, martureo states in post 394-

Quote:

The three centuries of scholars I mentioned, the majority of them were/are atheists.

so heres what wikipedia has to say on jesus literacy-
Historical Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:

"There are strong indications of a high illiteracy rate among the lower socio-economic classes in the Roman Empire at large, with various scholars estimating 3% to 10% literacy rates.[76][98] However, the Babylonian Talmud (which dates to 3rd-5th century) states that the Jews had schools in nearly every one of their towns.[98]
Geoffrey Bromiley states that as a "religion of the book" Judaism emphasized reading and study, and people would read to themselves in a loud voice, rather than silently, a practice encouraged (Erubin 54a) by the Rabbis.[98] James D. G. Dunn states that Second Temple Judaism placed a great deal of emphasis on the study of Torah, and the "writing prophets" of Judaism assumed that sections of the public could read.[76] Dunn and separately Donahue and Harrington refer to the statement by first century historian Josephus in Against Apion (2.204) that the "law requires that they (children) be taught to read" as an indication of high literacy rate among some first century Jews.[76][99] Richard A. Horsley, on the other hand, states that the Josephus reference to learn "grammata" may not necessarily refer to reading and may be about an oral tradition.[100]
There are a number of passages from the Gospels which state or imply that Jesus could read.[101] The Jesus Seminar stated that references in the Gospels to Jesus reading and writing may be fictions.[102] John Dominic Crossan who views Jesus as a peasant states that he would not have been literate.[103] Craig A. Evans states that it should not be assumed that Jesus was a peasant, and that his extended travels may indicate some measure of financial means.[104] Evans states that existing data indicate that Jesus could read scripture, paraphrase and debate it, but that does not imply that he received formal scribal training, given the divergence of his views from the existing religious background of his time.[105] James Dunn states that it is "quite credible" that Jesus could read.[76] John P. Meier further concludes that the literacy of Jesus probably extended to the ability to read and comment on sophisticated theological and literary works".[106]

lets see whos mentioned-

Quote:

Geoffrey Bromiley-
Geoffrey W. Bromiley

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Geoffrey W. Bromiley (1915 - August 7, 2009) was a church historian and historical theologian. He was professor emeritus at Fuller Theological Seminary, having been Professor of Church History and Historical Theology there from 1958 until his retirement in 1987."[1]
Bromiley, born in Bromley Cross, Lancashire, England, in 1915, earned his MA at Cambridge University and his PhD, DLitt, and DD at the University of Edinburgh. Ordained in the Church of England, he served from 1951 to 1958 as Rector of St. Thomas’s Church, Edinburgh. In 1958, he accepted the appointment as Professor of Church History and Historical Theology at Fuller, where he served until his retirement in 1987."[1]
Geoffrey W. Bromiley died on August 7, 2009.

hmm, doesn't look like an athiest

Quote:

James Dunn (theologian)

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(Redirected from James D. G. Dunn)
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James D. G. ("Jimmy") Dunn (born 1939) is a leading British New Testament scholar who was for many years the Lightfoot Professor of Divinity in the Department of Theology at the University of Durham. Since his retirement he has been made Emeritus Lightfoot Professor. He has worked broadly from within the Protestant tradition. Dunn is especially associated with the New Perspective on Paul, along with N. T. (Tom) Wright and E. P. Sanders. He is credited with coining this phrase during his 1982 Manson Memorial Lecture.[citation needed]
He is a Methodist Local Preacher.

well gee, I doubt a methodist preacher is an athiest, lets continue-

Quote:

Richard A. Horsley

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Richard A. Horsley is Distinguished Professor of Liberal Arts and the Study of Religion at the University of Massachusetts, Boston.[1]
He described his view of the historical Jesus in these words (Jesus and the Spiral of Violence, pp. 207-208):

Horsley has a PhD from Harvard and previously taught at Wesleyan University.[3]

hmm, could be an athiest, but I doubt it.

Quote:

Craig A. Evans

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Craig Alan Evans is a biblical scholar and author. He has written widely on the historical Jesus, New Testament textual criticism, and early Christianity.
He earned his Bachelor of Arts in history and philosophy from Claremont McKenna College, a Master of Divinity from Western Baptist Seminary in Portland, Oregon, and his Master of Arts and Ph.D. in Biblical Studies from Claremont Graduate University in southern California.

A master of divinity.
next-

Quote:

John P. Meier

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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For other people named John Meier, see John Meier (disambiguation).
John Paul Meier (born 1942) is a biblical scholar and Catholic priest. He attended St. Joseph's Seminary and College (B.A., 1964), Gregorian University Rome (S.T.L, 1968), and the Biblical Institute Rome (S.S.D., 1976). He is author of the series A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus (4 v.), six other books, and more than 70 articles for peer-reviewed or solicited journals or books.[1]
Meier is William K. Warren Professor of Theology at the University of Notre Dame. His fields include biblical studies and Christianity and Judaism in antiquity.[2][1] Before coming to Notre Dame, he was professor of New Testament at The Catholic University of America.

A catholic priest. So basically in the poor mans verison of research, searching wikipedia, there is debate on Jesus's literacy even among current scholars, who instead of being athiest as martureo claims, are most likely religious men.
As you can see above, 5 scholars mentioned in the page all happen to be biblical scholars and many priests of one type or another.

The idea of being trained as a scribe specifically is interesting, something martureo could have simply mentioned instead of petulance. Basically its clear scholars don't know if he could write, but it seems a majority believe he could read, and we can't even agree on his profession or socioeconomic status in the first place.

So we are back to square one, we just don't know, not enough information

cmbdiesel · #5 06-29-2013, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilcutt

Promise?
You have ran this game before.

ain't that the truth.... I like truth....

and bacon....

cixelsyD · #6 06-30-2013, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

ain't that the truth.... I like truth....

and bacon....

ding ding ding!

We have ANOTHER winner folks!

To the Cured Fundamentalist Porcineologist in the back!

cixelsyD · #7 06-30-2013, 11:56 AM

Good comedy here, you just can't make this stuff up...

Lots of references to this, pick a search engine.

Dr Laura and Leviticus

Laura Schlesinger is a US radio personality, who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. She recently said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination, according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstances. The following response is an open letter to Dr. Laura which was posted on the Internet. Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination... End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.
1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath.Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle- room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16.
Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
Your adoring fan,
Homer Simpson-Caldwell

davidmash · #8 06-30-2013, 01:56 PM

There was a West Wing episode in which a character representing her was skewered by the president (Martin Sheen) saying some of the same things above. Great piece.

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