Zimmerman verdict
 

I see the verdict is not guilty. It appears there was not enough evidence to convict of anything. Apparently the prosecutor's reluctance to bring charges in the first place has been proven to be appropriate.

Please refrain from personal attacks in this thread. Most of us had feelings one way or another on this but it does no good to attack each other verbally.

I don't understand why a voice analysis could not tell who was screaming on the tape. Can anyone answer that? Is the autopsy report available to look at? I still wonder about the weight of Martin.

OK, I found the autopsy report on line. TM was 5' 11 and weighed 158#. Autopsy remarked average musculature and a BMI of 22. It mentioned injuries to the knuckles and really nothing else in the way of injuries.

My view is that if he was aquitted by a jury of his peers, then I will stand by their decision in judging him not guilty, no matter what my opinion prior was.

Cases like this are always a media circus, and its difficult for third party spectators like ourselves to really be sure what's hype, what's fact, and what's media milking of guranteed story.

Common sense prevailed over PC hysteria. Justice prevailed

I felt the same way after the OJ trial. :rolleyes:

The prosecution started losing the case with their star witnesses...they all basically turned into witnesses for the defense. They did the best they could with the evidence they had, but it wasn't enough to overcome reasonable doubt. When they decided to go with the lesser charge of Manslaughter, they conceded that they lost. There was no way that any honest jury could say that the shooting was anything less than self defense...especially with Prosecution witness John Good saying that he saw the lighter colored man on the bottom, and the darker colored person on top of him, pummeling him.

It's clear now for everyone that the racial angle is coming from the black community...the head of the NAACP has asked the Feds to get involved and bring civil rights charges against Zimmerman.

You ca't draw a single parallel with the OJ trial...OJ was guilty as sin, but you can't bring illegally gotten evidence into court. That evidence was gotten without a warrant...

In the end, I was glad to see OJ walk, because it was a constitutional case at that point. I was also glad to see him lose the civil case, because he WAS guilty.

I am glad to see that immense political and biased social pressure was overcome, racism was overcome, the evidence outweighed conjecture and a fair decision resulted. This should have never been brought to trial, but it was and its over. I hope no one is injured or killed in any backlash from society's rebuttal to the decision.

The blatant manipulation of the information by the media was disgusting...the use of out dated pictures of Martin, the lack of pictures of Zimmermans injuries until very late into the process, the playing and hyping of the race card by the media and its lackeys was unworthy of an Oscar.

I hope Angela Corey and her office is investigated for evidence withholding and succumbing to political and social presurre for bringing forward a case that should not have been moved forward if not for the "pressures" that were applied from the White House down, NAACP, Sharpton and his gang and the others who instigated racial presurres to move this case forward. The former police chief of Sanford should sue for compensatory damages and possibly civil rights abuses for his dismissal. The Zimmermans should sue the news outlet, was it NBC, that tampered with the 911 call and broadcasted a manipulated version. The media started the flame, fed the flame, poured gas on the flame to ensure it reached "acceptable" heights of noticabability and then stayed on task to ensure the flames will continue to be fanned.

Rodney King, V2.0

Having been raised in FLA and understanding the change in demographics of the past 40 years, I am not at all surprised by the verdict.
Gated communities and neighborhood watch programs have led to a culture of fear and paranoia in what once was a nice place to live.
The distrust of anyone not from this neighborhood attitude is what drove this case from the start and the media hype (local and national) made it a circus. I spent a number of years in broadcast journalism and watched several former collegues fall on their swords covering the killing and the trial.
The media hysteria surrounding the trial is another reason why the US needs to follow Canada in blocking all media coverage of a trial in progress.

Plexico Burris served time for accidentally shooting...himself.
Micheal Vick served time for shooting/killing....a dog.

;)


That is all...

Wonder if we can get our tax dollars back for the cost incurred by the DOJ in regards to what they did regarding the case.

Very reassuring to see that common sense prevailed. He should have never been charged. Anyone who believes the verdict was incorrect, is either horribly blinded by their own bigotry or political correctness, OR they did not bother to learn the facts of the case.

BTW, I guess the autopsy report indicating Martins knuckle damage was the result of Zimmerman beating the heck out of Martins knuckles with his head. What a bully!

Watch how fast the media drops this and tried to start another.

Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Lafayette Indiana
Posts: 20,630
[I]I don't understand why a voice analysis could not tell who was screaming on the tape[/I

I asked myself the exact same question.

Hence the rolleyes smilie. We really need a tongue in cheek one.

My understanding was because of the poor quality of the recording.

I saw some of the testimony of the impartial expert in voice recognition. There was an analysis of the recording by that professional expert and his conclusion was that the voice could not be identified. Why is this an issue to anyone? An expert in the field concludes and so what do you want ... someone to overrule that expert in favor of your (not meaning you in particular DM) view?

"Fuc king punks, these as sholes always get away"

Not this time Sheriff Z, not this time.

Sorry, I see eye rolls as hateful, snarky and sarcastic...I have current teenagers, remember? :)

I agree that they need to update the smilies...

There are unconfirmed reports that Zimmerman will be feted at a barbecue given in his honor by the descendants of Roy Bryant and J.W. Milam in Money, Mississippi.

Could they have compelled Zimmerman to provide a comparative voice sample? Obviously, they could not secure one from Martin, unless they somehow could have made previously-recorded voice samples work.

You are obviously quoting this out of context!

This is the first I have heard why they could not identify it.

It would be interesting to hear what the jurors have to say about the verdict.

An option for juries might include ..."we thought he was guilty as heck but the prosecution did such a poor job it was not proven." ...of course that will never happen and I would be surprised if any juror comments on the record.

Is there any consensus in the legal community as to whether there can be a civil suit as there was in the OJ case?

If you're asking if the legal opportunity exists for a wrongful death lawsuit, the answer is yes. If you're asking if the plaintiff will prevail...

I am not asking who will prevail.

I saw a clip of the Z attorney sitting on top of a foam dummy shaking it so its head hit the floor. The dummy Must have weighed three pounds.

I'd like to see a demonstration of an average 5' 11 seventeen year old weighing 158# shaking a mature man weighing (what do you guess?) 230#. If I had been the prosecutor I would have been on that like ugly on ape.

I am still not buying that the kid could have killed Z that way....not even if their physical sizes had been reversed.

Ooopsy, busted. I'm sure he meant something else and this is in no way an indication of his intentions.

re: voice recording - I dont know if there is any legal precedent, but the human ear can hear from 30hz to 20,000hz in its prime. - that 19k of "bandwidth". Make that 7k of bandwidth if you are old and your ears are going bad (IIRC a tube television makes a 19k(?) noise....which is why some children can hear a TV on in an adjoining room....)

Cell phones/normal phones are tuned to only pass 6k or less if the connection is bad - Not sure what the connection was like during the incident in question.
who knows what the sampling rate of the 911 recorder is.

Given that we only have a lousy (my term) recording of whatever screams were made (I havent been that tuned in to the trial). I can see why someone would reason that any kind of scientific voice analysis is simply not up to the task of doing an either/or comparison based on the limited data available.

True audio folk are welcome to disagree with me here - I'd love to hear the science.

-John

I like the "not proven" verdict in Scottish law. It's basically a "not guilty" verdict with the same protections, but it says "this person might be guilty, but the prosecution didn't prove its case."

As far as a civil suit, I heard that it was difficult to impossible to sue for wrongful death in Fla. if the defendant was acquitted of criminal responsibility for the death. Maybe a suit on a Federal level would work, who knows?

I don't buy that Zimmerman thought his life was in jeapordy. I will buy that he might have thought he was being whupped and did not want to lose.

Could he have lifted Zimmerman's upper body (not just his head) and pushed it back with enough force to cause a life-threatening injury? I guess it's not impossible, but one would have to assume that Zimmerman was offering zero resistance to those efforts. If Zimmerman was physically resisting the movement.? No way.

I want to know what brand those two bandaids on Z's head were. If they saved his life Ima get me some.

A few questions come to mind regarding the viability of a civil suit in the wake of criminal proceedings. Are the rules of evidence materially different in civil court as compared to those in effect at the criminal trial? Would some evidence that would be disallowed in a criminal trial be allowed in a civil proceedings, and vice-versa? I have a very faint recollection that such a question was material in the OJ trial.

... and you are not the only one who missed much of the important facts of the case. If you are predisposed to favor the black minority in this case and you missed much of the facts of the case then you are more likely to shout, yell, burn cars, smash windows and otherwise riot and cause needless destruction and civil unrest- all because you are ignorant of the facts of the case.

In terms of him not being guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, I too will respect their decision. However, I do not accord GZ 'pure as the driven snow' status. His paranoia and vindictiveness moved him to see a problem where there wasn't one. He was the author of this drama, even if TM did possibly end up bringing part of it on himself.

GZ was a wanna-be tough guy, I always figured that he had been no much for a skinny young athlete. His mma trainer affirmed what I had thought about him, that is, a wimp and a wuss.

This event will dog him all his days. He'll be a bit like Rodney King, that is, every misstep of his in future will be widely broadcast.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, do you need an unanimous verdict from a Florida jury in a civil trial?

Yes, civil suits require a "preponderance of proof" rather than lack of a reasonable doubt ... but, I think that Florida law actually severely restricts the initiation of wrongful-death suits if the accused was acquitted of the death in criminal court. (so it would never get to the civil trial stage)

Oh please. THE FACTS were difficult to discern. Most of the important facts reside(d) in the heads of GZ and TM.

What evidence do you have which supports this conclusion?

Witnesses (called by the prosecution no less) testified that TM was on straddling on top (called a full mount- the most effective position to inflict maximum damage in the shortest amount of time in a fight) of GZ pummeling his head on a concrete. Did you miss that testimony as well as the impartial expert on voice recognition?

TW said he did not know about the impartial voice recognition expert testimony. That is a fact. The fact is that this expert could not identify the voice. Do you dispute those facts?

Oh boy, an expert saying he had no relevant info is a fact but it is not a fact that tells us too much.

GZ is a wimp and a wuss. He was getting his ass kicked by a skinny kid and thought his life was in danger. He was a wimp when he was in better shape (according to his MMA trainer) and now he's a pudge and a wimp. F the puke, he turns my stomach.

Not only that, but the forensic expert with 40 years of experience pointed out that the powder burns were consistent with martins shirt being a few inches away form skin as it would be if he were leaning over as opposed to him being underneath with his shirt being right on the skin.

Of course this is simply another FACT that those not following the case or blinded by their own political correctness would not be aware of. One of numerous such facts that came out in the trial.

Fortunately the jury was analytic, honest and not bullied by the threat of civil disturbance.

So he deserved to go to jail for most of the rest of us life because he is a wimp?

I will accept the very real possibility that TM was on GZ's chest and giving him an ass-whooping. GZ was a wanna-be toughguy whereas TM was an athlete and had likely cut his teeth on more intense scuffling with his buddies than had GZ. Ever notice how with puppies and kittens, play is pretend fighting? We too are mammals, and the amount of rigorous play of this sort that children get has a lot to do with their physical capabilities as an adult.

This absolutely does not change the fact that GZ clearly initiated the confrontation and did so because of his irrational and out of control fear. Crime is real and criminals do exist. But the odds of picking such a person out from a few details seen in short order on the street are slim.

If two people get into a fist fight and one has a gun, then someone's going to get shot. Up to that point, the situation was avoidable, but if you're going to carry a firearm, you'd better not let anyone take control of your gun.

I'd say "nice try" but I don't want to lie. I'll agree that life in prison would have been too great a sentence. Society is at fault here also as can be see in the whole SYG macho appeal.

GZ deserves, IMO, about 3 years of HARRRD labor for him to reflect on the error of his ways and to make a man out of him. He blew it in a big way. Nothing he did that night would be something one would put on a job application, assuming the event had not become common knowledge.

He created a problem where there was none, and created a problem that he ultimately proved to be incapable of resolving well. I was in plenty of scrapes in the inner city when I drove cab. One night I got out of the cab with my state trooper, steel 5 D cell flashlight and brandished it at a black man who had just been my passenger. Wasn't the best spot, about two car lengths into an alley of some sort. I was approx. 30, in decent shape, he maybe 45 to 50, not weak but not big either. He owed me $8 on the fair and was trying to do the 'you got change for a $50?' thing. Not showing me a fifty, just going on about how he had the money but (some endless scamming crap).

He was talking about 'oh man, would I do something like that outside my Mother's house?' As another younger black man walked by I said 'You better hope that's not your mother's house!' My meaning being that you'd have to be a real $h!t to use your mother's good name like that. The other guy eyed us warily and walked on. Clear to me that he saw the guy's obvious scammer posture. That routine is common in the black inner city in that day - I got it regularly.

I didn't get the money but I did have the satisfaction of telling the fool off. Point being, you choose your fights well and stand up when it makes sense and choose restraint when that makes more sense.

According to FL law if you believe your life is in danger you are allowed to use force to stop your death.
By your own admission GZ is not guilty of breaking the law he was charged with. :rolleyes:

If you are a wimp then the law does not apply to you?

Wimps turn your stomach- or just wimps which have the intention to stop further criminals?
Care to prove this allegation? It certainly was not proven in court, nor to anyone else.

Yeah, Z may very well have followed the kid when he shouldn't have. By the same token, the punk could have easily just walked away. Legally what led to the scuffle has nothing to do with whether or not Z felt that his life was being threatened while actually in the scuffle. His perception of danger is all that counted as far as what the jury is supposed to consider.

If Martin was pounding his head against the ground that's not a trivial thing. In an MMA Match, the referees do not allow the head to be pounded against the floor. If the recipient lays their head back so that it is being directly pounded against the floor they stop that.

I don't doubt that Z is a wimp. I don't know him. It doesn't matter. What matters is whether or not he thought his life was in danger.

Again, do you think Z should spend 30 years in jail for being a wimp.

Exactly correct! When the scuffle got into full swing, it wasn't Z's gun and it wasn't Martins gun. In the scuffle it was THE gun.