Another Ruby Ridge/Waco event brewing - Page 47 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Botnst · #**691** 04-28-2014, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTI

In the video of Cliven giving his history lesson on "the negro" . . . I believe you can discern grunts of approval. There certainly wasn't anyone there saying "uh, hold on there . . ." Particularly this part of his sermon at the ranch when he notices the apparent lack of diversity among the militia folks:

Where is our colored brother? Where is our Mexican brother? Where is our Chinese? Where are they? They’re just as much American as we are, and they’re not with us. If they’re not with us, they’re going to be against us.

There was also this from Maureen O'Dowd's op-ed:

The unsettling thing about Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy’s ugly rant on the Virgin River on Saturday, The Times’s Adam Nagourney told me, was that there was no negative reaction from the semicircle of gun-toting and conspiracy-minded supporters who had gathered round to hear it. The oblivious 67-year-old Bundy, who has refused for 20 years to pay for his cattle to graze on our land, offered a nostalgic ode to slavery.

Maureen Dowd, who wasn't there, quotes somebody who said he saw something not happen. That's some fine fact checking on ol' Maureen's part.

Diesel911 · #**692** 04-28-2014, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jorn

Slaughter is is a big word. What I meant was that if the troops had modern weapons, like everyone carries these days, the outcome could have been like Waco.

In the 20's it would still take days before news about the Bonus Marchers would reach California and other parts of the country. If I remember well I watched Waco and the slaughter unfolding on life TV, in Holland.

I was horrified and raging with anger. Within a year there was a full fletched 90 minute documentary in the cinema about Waco and was I watching it on a 40ft screen...

Radio did not take days to reach the Nation. In fact the National News Papers would only have had to wait for the next Addition to Print the Story as Stories could be Telephoned in.

It would have taken days if not weeks for Film to make it to the West Coast and no matter where you saw the Film you would have had to pay to see it.

Note that up until 1927 The 1920s was a time of prosperity time in the USA and a good deal of the Population had Radios at Home.

Diesel911 · #**693** 04-28-2014, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

Forget the government's military reaction against a citizen--LOOK Over here---it a Red Herring. Look..look

Does his racism, or lack thereof have any bearing on the government's action? Its OK to use excessive force against a racists, right?

and the German Middle class overlooked the early attacks on the Jews--even educated Jews thought they had nothing to fear.
Fascism is fascism, no matter how it may be disguised.

If People like you or your group it has a large bearing on how you or your group is treated. That does not have to do with the Law that has to do with Human Nature.

Part of the reason that the WACO incident was not villified by the USA Polulation is they were intollerent over Man who claims be Jesus and Followers that believed that was trun were all considerd Mental Cases.

If you believe that it is easly to believe that the Law did not have to deal with them in a resonable manner and anything the Mental Cases had to say is going to be greatly discounted.

INSIDIOUS · #**694** 04-28-2014, 11:35 PM

The spin doctors are strong when standing in range feed manure.

Diesel911 · #**695** 04-28-2014, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

So might his clipping his toenails while dinner is being served but likable or not, it is not germane to the issue at hand. Now if someone were to try make this a hate crime where he hates black people and because some people in government are black and therefore he refuses to pay, it would be silly but somewhat more germane.

It is germane to getting good or bad publicity and having others in the Government giving you support.

Also if the General Public decides to turn its back on You it gives the Law does not have to be as careful how it deals with you.

cmac2012 · #**696** 04-28-2014, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

Since someone mentioned Lincoln, here is an excerpt from his 2nd inaugural, one of my favorite quotes ( if i get it right, working from memory)
"....if every drop of blood drawn with the lash must be repaid by one drawn by the sword, what shall we say but, " The judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether..." " The atonement was paid in the blood of the American Civil War.

Sorry, no. What, 150 to 200 years of slavery, decades of Jim Crow? And several years of war, awful as it was, balances the scales? And the war was a quarrel between whites for the most part. If the war is construed to be primarily about slavery, and plenty argue otherwise, it was white people fighting about an institution that white people created.

It was a step in the right direction but it was only a step.

cmac2012 · #**697** 04-28-2014, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dudesky

Egged on by some reporter?

Old Clive did make mention of some things previously mentioned regarding life on the democrat plantation........mentioned by blacks.

How can that go unnoticed?

Damn those reporters, tripping him up n'stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Maureen Dowd, who wasn't there, quotes somebody who said he saw something not happen. That's some fine fact checking on ol' Maureen's part.

If the man Dowd quoted was there, and it sounds from her words that he was, and he noted that no one contradicted the man, or otherwise spoke up, I'd say that's a reasonable point to bring up. How does one check such facts? If there was video footage of someone taking issue with his words on the scene, we'd have seen it by now.

Botnst · #**698** 04-28-2014, 11:58 PM

“THE THING WITH ME IS THAT I AM SMART AND I’M SMELF, I’M SELF SMARTED, BASICALLY, BY MYSELF, BASICALLY FROM NATURE AND SMOKING DRUGS AND DOING DIFFERENT THINGS I’VE SELF…LIKE SELF LEARNED MYSELF. AND THAT’S THE WHOLE DIFFERENCE I GUESS IS THAT I DON’T NEED THE BOOKS OR THE SCHOOLING TYPE THINGS. I JUST GET EVERYTHING ON MY OWN AND BECAUSE OF THAT I’M ALIVE RIGHT NOW, BECAUSE PEOPLE SAY BOOKS AND COLLEGE ARE FOR TO MAKE YOU SMARTER, BUT THEY CAN ALSO BE FOR TO MAKE YOU DEAD, WHICH IS WHAT COULD HAVE HAPPENED TO ME. MY BRAIN DOESN’T USE ENOUGH OXYGEN BECAUSE I DON’T HAVE THE WHOLE THING FILLED WITH DIFFERENT STUFF. AND IF IT WAS FULL, ITS ONLY PART FULL AND THAT’S WHY I’M ALIVE RIGHT NOW.”

Dudesky · #**699** 04-29-2014, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTI

In the video of Cliven giving his history lesson on "the negro" . . . I believe you can discern grunts of approval. There certainly wasn't anyone there saying "uh, hold on there . . ." Particularly this part of his sermon at the ranch when he notices the apparent lack of diversity among the militia folks:

Where is our colored brother? Where is our Mexican brother? Where is our Chinese? Where are they? They’re just as much American as we are, and they’re not with us. If they’re not with us, they’re going to be against us.

There was also this from Maureen O'Dowd's op-ed:

The unsettling thing about Nevada rancher Cliven Bundy’s ugly rant on the Virgin River on Saturday, The Times’s Adam Nagourney told me, was that there was no negative reaction from the semicircle of gun-toting and conspiracy-minded supporters who had gathered round to hear it. The oblivious 67-year-old Bundy, who has refused for 20 years to pay for his cattle to graze on our land, offered a nostalgic ode to slavery.

You believed you heard 'perceived grunts of approval' ?

You believed???

Sounds as bad as Clivens 'racist rants'.

"I think I heard he doesn't like Negros"

Dudesky · #**700** 04-29-2014, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

“THE THING WITH ME IS THAT I AM SMART AND I’M SMELF, I’M SELF SMARTED, BASICALLY, BY MYSELF, BASICALLY FROM NATURE AND SMOKING DRUGS AND DOING DIFFERENT THINGS I’VE SELF…LIKE SELF LEARNED MYSELF. AND THAT’S THE WHOLE DIFFERENCE I GUESS IS THAT I DON’T NEED THE BOOKS OR THE SCHOOLING TYPE THINGS. I JUST GET EVERYTHING ON MY OWN AND BECAUSE OF THAT I’M ALIVE RIGHT NOW, BECAUSE PEOPLE SAY BOOKS AND COLLEGE ARE FOR TO MAKE YOU SMARTER, BUT THEY CAN ALSO BE FOR TO MAKE YOU DEAD, WHICH IS WHAT COULD HAVE HAPPENED TO ME. MY BRAIN DOESN’T USE ENOUGH OXYGEN BECAUSE I DON’T HAVE THE WHOLE THING FILLED WITH DIFFERENT STUFF. AND IF IT WAS FULL, ITS ONLY PART FULL AND THAT’S WHY I’M ALIVE RIGHT NOW.”

Any inklings of a political future?

aklim · #**701** 04-29-2014, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Could be the only atonement possible is the one that has gone on up til this moment: an often awkward and painful process of learning something that has arguably not been successfully done before, which is of course, a working multi racial society with something approximating equality for the various players.

There are ongoing problems of course but there are also many area of enrichment, cultural growth etc.

How do you atone for something you didn't do? But lets say you could. I'm Chinese and if I looked hard enough, I could find some relation that was in the railroad crew that was mistreated. So what now? At the rate you go, you will be paying for the sins of everyone since time. Your debt will never end. You can spend your life atoning for "sins of the father" and it will never be enough. Besides, only the sinner can atone for his/her sins. What good is my apology for my father ripping off your father? Only my father can apologize to your father for his crimes.

aklim · #**702** 04-29-2014, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Th gov intervention may have had the best of intentions (I think it did) the consequences are, I believe, at great variance from the intention. It has created a dependency class and clearly not just for black folks. If I remember correctly there are more whites than blacks on the dole.

Clive was wrong in singling-out a racial component. It isn't about race, it is about creating a dependent class. No matter how virtuously color-blind it maybe, its effect has been insidious. It has destroyed the dependent family by rewarding single parenthood. It has rewarded creating children by increasing benefits with the number of children. Clearly, no right-thinking person would intentional perpetrate such a disaster on society.

Despite intentions, reality is what it is. And we persist in addressing the initial problem that has metastasized by doing more of the same. It is th wrong path that has become institutionalized in government and in the minds of the people.

I would say the people had the intentions. Govt wanted votes. As to the number of dependents, is that really relevant? If the white population is larger, even a smaller percentage will have larger numbers in the end.

Maybe the issue is like giving someone a fish. They eat for the day but don't know how to take care of tomorrow. Maybe the people that wanted it simply wanted the benefactors to eat for the day but worry about them learning how to fish another day. When that day comes, kick the can down the road.

They do say the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

cmac2012 · #**703** 04-29-2014, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

How do you atone for something you didn't do? But lets say you could. I'm Chinese and if I looked hard enough, I could find some relation that was in the railroad crew that was mistreated. So what now? At the rate you go, you will be paying for the sins of everyone since time. Your debt will never end. You can spend your life atoning for "sins of the father" and it will never be enough. Besides, only the sinner can atone for his/her sins. What good is my apology for my father ripping off your father? Only my father can apologize to your father for his crimes.

Ok, Ok. I'm not suggesting that even white southerners hang their heads in shame for the next 200 years. And as a Chinese person, yes, it's a tad different. But the economy of the south was built on the backs of slaves and the war didn't destroy all of it.

And the lucrative triangle of trade from the late 16th to early 19th centuries had a good bit to do with getting the American economy off the ground: slaves from Africa to the West Indies; sugar, molasses, and rum to the American colonies, the same to Europe along with tobacco and hemp from Virginia; copper, cloth, beads, guns and ammo to Africa to trade for slaves and repeat.

So on some level, at the end of the civil war it really wasn't enough to say 'we're sorry, here's your freedom, now get the hell off'n a my land.'

Jorn · #**704** 04-29-2014, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Ok, Ok. I'm not suggesting that even white southerners hang their heads in shame for the next 200 years. And as a Chinese person, yes, it's a tad different. But the economy of the south was built on the backs of slaves and the war didn't destroy all of it.

And the lucrative triangle of trade from the late 16th to early 19th centuries had a good bit to do with getting the American economy off the ground: slaves from Africa to the West Indies; sugar, molasses, and rum to the American colonies, the same to Europe along with tobacco and hemp from Virginia; copper, cloth, beads, guns and ammo to Africa to trade for slaves and repeat.

So on some level, at the end of the civil war it really wasn't enough to say 'we're sorry, here's your freedom, now get the hell off'n a my land.'

Slavery build the South, but it also brought it down. Because of slavery the South never industrialized like the North did. Only now is the South catching up. One of the maine reasons Southern states are still the poorest in the nation.

aklim · #**705** 04-29-2014, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Ok, Ok. I'm not suggesting that even white southerners hang their heads in shame for the next 200 years. And as a Chinese person, yes, it's a tad different. But the economy of the south was built on the backs of slaves and the war didn't destroy all of it.

And the lucrative triangle of trade from the late 16th to early 19th centuries had a good bit to do with getting the American economy off the ground: slaves from Africa to the West Indies; sugar, molasses, and rum to the American colonies, the same to Europe along with tobacco and hemp from Virginia; copper, cloth, beads, guns and ammo to Africa to trade for slaves and repeat.

So on some level, at the end of the civil war it really wasn't enough to say 'we're sorry, here's your freedom, now get the hell off'n a my land.'

Yes, I understand all of what you say. But if you are not suggesting that white people hang their head for the next 200 years, what is it you are suggesting? How many years do you expect me to keep blaming my current situation on the mistakes of my father before I do something for myself and worry about what is going on today and maybe tomorrow? Dwelling on what my ancestors did is foolish. I can never what my great grandfather did to your great grandfather by apologizing to you and what not. All it does is set up another "Hatfield and McCoy" situation where we have a blood feud because my so and so had a beef with your so and so.

If it wasn't enough to say "we're sorry" at the end of the civil war to the people who were enslaved then, it certainly won't make any difference for me to say that to somebody who wasn't even there. Imagine a Japanese person coming to apologize to me for what his ancestor did to mine. What good does it do? His ancestor should be the one apologizing to my ancestor for the misdeeds. His apology is meaningless. That is like me punishing you for your grandfather's theft of my grandfather's horse. All it is good for now is to make an "us vs them" situation and give me a reason to hate you and your family although I don't really know what it was about.