Another Ruby Ridge/Waco event brewing - Page 57 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Idle · #**841** 05-04-2014, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

Balance is always the key....
To my Conservative friends, don't allow your fear of the government to overlook Bundy's failures to follow the law. we claim we are a nation of laws, and he failed to abide by them. There are ways to change bad laws, and they take time, but as long as there is a law that requires payment of a fee, he needed to obey that law. At the very least , he could have paid the disputed fees into an escrow account, and avoided looking like a cheap-skate.

To my Liberal/Progressive friends, don't allow your distaste for Bundy and his gun-totting friends to cause you to overlook the real evil of a government that attacks its citizens with overt military force. What is most suspicious to many is the same government refuses to use the same force against other law-breakers---notably those who, against the laws of this country, enter illegally, or to use that military force to save the lives of US citizens and the Ambassador at the Benghazi attack. Combine that use or misuse use of force with the known ability of the government to lie, and you have a government that makes its citizens fear. That is tyranny.

If you want to really set off those folks that love Bundy remind them that Jesus pointed out we should give unto Caesar what was his. Most Conservatives think of themselves as Uber-Christians, at least the ones I know do, yet there are few of them that can carry on a conversation if it requires any knowledge of the Bible.

cmac2012 · #**842** 05-04-2014, 12:57 AM

Oopsie.

cmac2012 · #**843** 05-04-2014, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

They ARE vermin. Again, the issue is there is little loss. Like the gnats yo talk about, you catch them, release them and they came back. I'd gamble my life savings away if there was a "take back" at the end of the day, IOW, no consequence. I mean, if you have something to gain and nothing to lose, WGAS? OTOH, if you mount a bunch of automated pill boxes there to mow them down if they cross, perhaps it will cause SOME, not all, SOME to have thought.

Gnats could I suppose be referred to as vermin. You don't know enough about any of the people involved to use the word 'vermin.'

MS Fowler · #**844** 05-04-2014, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911

In more peaceful situations a goodly number of the Liberal/Progressives are worried about the Common Man owning a Gun and have claimed that the Common Man owning a Gun endangers themselves and People living in the same Household with the Gun.
But, now it is OK for those same irresponsible Common Men to pull the Guns on Law Enforcement?
Could it be that Liberal/Progressives don’t really trust anyone.

"Could it be that Liberal/Progressives don’t really trust anyone" except GOVERNMENT.

MS Fowler · #**845** 05-04-2014, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idle

If you want to really set off those folks that love Bundy remind them that Jesus pointed out we should give unto Caesar what was his. Most Conservatives think of themselves as Uber-Christians, at least the ones I know do, yet there are few of them that can carry on a conversation if it requires any knowledge of the Bible.

I always causes me concern when Christians quote selectively to support a political POV. Many times the quotes are out of context, and as any first year Seminarian should have learned, " Any (biblical) text apart from its context is only a pretext". The historic lesson for me is to remember how many Christians who otherwise had a great understanding of scriptures used those same scriptures to argue that human slavery was good, and that the black man was inferior. I always wonder what things we Christians totally accept today will be views our descendants shake their heads in wonder about how we could have been so similarly blind.
When we build our personal lists of "Christian behaviors" ( we all do), we substitute that for God's list, which starts with the 10 commandments, and then includes the command to " be Perfect". We all fail. Well, at least, I believe we all fail. I know some Christians who believe they personally never err; that they are lively that perfect life. In my experience, that is because they have not progressed to the point where God can show them how far short they really fall.

aklim · #**846** 05-04-2014, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idle

I remember pointing out to some Conservatives during the Bush years that G. W. Bush was using fear to intimidate the Episcopal Church via the IRS. The overwhelming response was "Who cares if they love me as long as they fear me" and that we, as citizens, should fear our government when we oppose it because Republicans can do no wrong. I was told the source of this bit of wisdom was Rush Limbaugh but who really knows? One thing was for sure: They thought it was the gospel truth and that if I was afraid of the government then I must have a good reason to be afraid and it was my own fault and maybe I should take a little better care of myself and blah, blah, blah......

But now when the government causes citizens to fear it that is tyranny? When did this take place? Are Conservatives aware of this change in their position?

What has being a conservative or liberal or racist or anti-racist or history buff got to do with anything. Sounds like he is little more than a deadbeat tenant who is trying to wrap up his actions in the "flag and apple pie" routine to make himself sound heroic. People with an ax to grind will pick a side to justify their position.

He is just a unwilling to pay tenant who is being asked to leave. What has any philosophy got to do with the case at hand? The law is pretty clear. If you disagree we have a court system. If you cannot and/or will not abide by it, find yourself another country that is more in agreement with you. Is it simpler than that?

aklim · #**847** 05-04-2014, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Gnats could I suppose be referred to as vermin. You don't know enough about any of the people involved to use the word 'vermin.'

What more would I need to know? You broke into my house. Should I invite you for coffee before I decide what to do?

aklim · #**848** 05-04-2014, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

"Could it be that Liberal/Progressives don’t really trust anyone" except GOVERNMENT.

I think both sides trust or distrust government depending on which way the judgment goes.

Idle · #**849** 05-04-2014, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

"Could it be that Liberal/Progressives don’t really trust anyone" except GOVERNMENT.

Nope.

That is your opinion. It is nowhere near to a fact.

Idle · #**850** 05-04-2014, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

What has being a conservative or liberal or racist or anti-racist or history buff got to do with anything. Sounds like he is little more than a deadbeat tenant who is trying to wrap up his actions in the "flag and apple pie" routine to make himself sound heroic. People with an ax to grind will pick a side to justify their position.

He is just a unwilling to pay tenant who is being asked to leave. What has any philosophy got to do with the case at hand? The law is pretty clear. If you disagree we have a court system. If you cannot and/or will not abide by it, find yourself another country that is more in agreement with you. Is it simpler than that?

Please note that the point I was trying to make had to do with "If the people fear the government it is a terrible thing" vs. the Bush ear Conservative doctrine of "Who cares if they love me as long as they fear me".

Today Conservatives say that people fear the government because there is a terrible person in the White House. Eight years ago the only reason, at least according to Conservatives, for anyone to fear the government was because they were in the wrong and not the government.

When you truly think you can do no wrong you have lost all sense of reason and any action against anyone is just fine and dandy. After all, as Cheney said, the Constitution is just a piece of paper. Given that mindset why follow the rule of law?

It is refreshing to hear Conservatives admit that the government can make mistakes. There was an eight year period (which lined up with the eight years that Bush was in power) where questioning the actions of the government made you something besides a true American and the normal response of Conservatives was "If you don't like here then why don't you leave?"

It is weird for folks that don't believe in evolution to have evolved, but I am glad to see it taking place.

Idle · #**851** 05-04-2014, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

I think both sides trust or distrust government depending on which way the judgment goes.

Nope.

One side distrusts the government depending on the situation and the subject. They consider the facts available and make up their mind one way or the other.

The other side listens to Fox News and does what they are told.

cmac2012 · #**852** 05-04-2014, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

What more would I need to know? You broke into my house. Should I invite you for coffee before I decide what to do?

Someone broke into your house? People been migrating in search of work for a lonnnngggg time. See your ancestors' history for more info on that.

elchivito · #**853** 05-04-2014, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

"Could it be that Liberal/Progressives don’t really trust anyone" except GOVERNMENT.

Conservative mythology. I know very few "progressives" or liberals who inherently trust government.

HuskyMan · #**854** 05-04-2014, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

What has being a conservative or liberal or racist or anti-racist or history buff got to do with anything. Sounds like he is little more than a deadbeat tenant who is trying to wrap up his actions in the "flag and apple pie" routine to make himself sound heroic. People with an ax to grind will pick a side to justify their position.

He is just a unwilling to pay tenant who is being asked to leave. What has any philosophy got to do with the case at hand? The law is pretty clear. If you disagree we have a court system. If you cannot and/or will not abide by it, find yourself another country that is more in agreement with you. Is it simpler than that?

What if the judge in the court system YOU promote has a financial interest in the proceedings before him/her? As in a certain judge which has investments with Vanguard Securities but when asked to recuse himself involving a case INVOLVING Vanguard Securities refused to do so? Can you say BIAS/CONFLICT OF INTEREST? I knew you could.........

How about the fact that many of those who have won in court AND those who LOST in court have rated the experience "unsatisfactory" as opposed to those who opt for Binding Arbitration which has a better than 90% SATISFACTION rating?

There is one MAJOR MAJOR problem with using binding arbitration versus going to court. You end up cutting out that $500 an hour ATTOURNER (twister, transfer agent???) out of his piece of the pie. What a drag for the BAR association members, you chose to take the high road rather than fill a lawyer's pockets full of coin.

The court system is run and operated by the GOVERNMENT versus Binding Arbitration which IS a PRIVATE ENTERPRISE operation. Again, Binding Arbitration enjoys a substantially higher user satisfaction rating over the Government run court system.

"People get the government they DESERVE."

- Will Rogers

Be careful what you ask for because you just might get it.

cmac2012 · #**855** 05-04-2014, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

I always causes me concern when Christians quote selectively to support a political POV. Many times the quotes are out of context, and as any first year Seminarian should have learned, " Any (biblical) text apart from its context is only a pretext". The historic lesson for me is to remember how many Christians who otherwise had a great understanding of scriptures used those same scriptures to argue that human slavery was good, and that the black man was inferior. I always wonder what things we Christians totally accept today will be views our descendants shake their heads in wonder about how we could have been so similarly blind.
When we build our personal lists of "Christian behaviors" ( we all do), we substitute that for God's list, which starts with the 10 commandments, and then includes the command to " be Perfect". We all fail. Well, at least, I believe we all fail. I know some Christians who believe they personally never err; that they are lively that perfect life. In my experience, that is because they have not progressed to the point where God can show them how far short they really fall.

IOW, you have no response for the fact that the bible clearly states that Jesus directed his listeners to pay the lawful tax to the state. There is no context that changes the meaning. It's not a long passage and has no reference to the issue before or after:

Quote:

Matthew 22:

17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?

18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?

19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.

20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?

21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

22 When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.

Bundy was able to feed steers from birth to slaughter on forage that would have cost him about $27 if he'd paid the legal fee. Going with the rough estimate of $1,000 for an adult steer, it's not like Caesar was trying to starve poor ol' Bundy. He had PLENTY of room to render unto Caesar his due and still have plenty of energy left for he and family to give tribute to God.