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-   -   Tony Stewart Runs over Competitor after altercation... Murder? Manslaughter? (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/off-topic-discussion/358480-tony-stewart-runs-over-competitor-after-altercation-murder-manslaughter.html)

aklim 09-25-2014 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hill (Post 3389666)
If being a dick was relevent. I and a few others here would be in for life.:D

Probably not. They wouldn't have enough space with all the people like me who would be in for several lifetimes.

sloride 09-25-2014 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012 (Post 3389604)
I can't believe they wouldn't do one on Tony. And yes, pot does stay in the system for about a month. Ward could have gotten high a week before the race. The grand jury had a tough assignment. Ward was acting aggressive and agitated and what do they know about sprint cars? Not to mention, TS is a star, large fan base and burden of proof is what it is.

But to me, it is obvious. Stewart could have driven by him just like #45 before him, but then he would have had to endure getting flipped off and yelled at. He gunned the engine and went way upfield. The doubt on that is approx zero. He's legally off the hook and he's a dick. Not mutually exclusive.

There is no reason for Stewart to allow a check without any warrant. He hit someone on a race track that was clearly coming after him. What would submitting to a check prove, other than it wasn't his exhale that caused Ward to come after him.

cmac2012 09-26-2014 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim (Post 3389625)
Seriously? They just said and you are trying to say it was him being high a month ago? I suppose your complaint is now that the burden of proof should be on the less appealing party?

Yes. Lets throw aside the testimonials from witnesses, among whom are a couple of accident experts. Lets even forget that the video you saw and supposedly based your unbiased opinion on were shown to the grand jury

OK. So you think he is a dick. What's your point? That you are sore because the dick didn't get convicted as you feel he should? So you think the grand jury should toss evidence aside and simply focus on the public appeal of the accused? This is no different from people who claim the moon landing was faked simply because it didn't fit the religion. I don't care how many charities or good deeds TS did. Either he is guilty or he is not. I don't care if he is a dick. That has little to do with guilt. The burden of proof has always been with the accuser not the accused. Either we say that all have the right to make the accuser prove their guilt or we don't.

Stewart has behaved in a confrontational manner, out of his car, towards other drivers in their car. People do that with the assumption that the driver is mature enough to not run them over. I have no idea what the toxicology report is proof of. Ward looked plenty agile and physically capable on the track. #45 missed Ward by several feet. If Stewart had continued on the path he was, the normal yellow flag behavior, would have missed Ward easily.

Dick, schmick, he gunned his engine and went way upfield on the guy. Why the grand jury people couldn't see that is beyond me. It is as plain as the nose on the faces of all present. In this vid, you can clearly see the fishtailing beginning while Ward is still visible, IOW, has not been hit yet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxPiyEWCzls

Elsewhere in this thread has been stellar scholarship such as this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim (Post 3371755)
But how to prove that he intended to fishtail it to hit Ward? That is going to be difficult seeing as how Ward purposely put himself in the line of traffic. As I said, if he was clearly off track and Stewart swerved to hit him, no contest. Could he have controlled the fishtail to hit Ward? Possible. Could it be argued that he fishtailed in a surprise to Ward's action? Possible.

That said, we did have a silly notion concerning "beyond reasonable doubt" so how to say that there is no reasonable doubt to a person's reaction to an unreasonable action by another (walking on the track during a race)? Short of Stewart confessing, I'm not sure how to determine the reason for the fishtail.

The reason for the fishtail is he hit the gas, and oddly enough at just the right moment for the car to go towards Ward in a menacing manner. Clearly headed upfield at the same moment.

I'm sorry y'all, OJ was found not guilty also. Stewart is guilty as sin on this one.

t walgamuth 09-26-2014 03:50 PM

Guilty of what? ...being a dick?

Apparently the grand jury thought that was not illegal, apparently.;)

cmac2012 09-26-2014 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sloride (Post 3389688)
There is no reason for Stewart to allow a check without any warrant. He hit someone on a race track that was clearly coming after him. What would submitting to a check prove, other than it wasn't his exhale that caused Ward to come after him.

Ward was coming after Stewart? Waaaaa! That's the saddest thing I ever heard. Here was poor Mr. Stewart, protected only by a roll cage, helmet, and 700 hp sprint car and the clearly doped up Ward was going to hurl his body and naughty words at him?!? This is an outrage!!

Stewart was in long rehab not that long ago. It was a fatal incident with a motor vehicle. Stewart should have been checked. Might have a pain-killer med problem. The fat ass puke has been treated like royalty from the git-go. Boggles the mind.

cmac2012 09-26-2014 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth (Post 3389999)
Guilty of what? ...being a dick?

Apparently the grand jury thought that was not illegal, apparently.;)

The grand jury was composed of idiots, that much is clear.

Yeah, a dick. A guy who would hurl his car at a human form on the track, just because he could. Why people have their noses so far up Stewart's butt is beyond me.

I do have a clue on that though. The US public treats NASCAR champs like royalty. Ward was a hot headed kid. Stewart is a hot-headed NACSAR champ. Big difference.

aklim 09-26-2014 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012 (Post 3389997)
Stewart has behaved in a confrontational manner, out of his car, towards other drivers in their car.

People do that with the assumption that the driver is mature enough to not run them over.

I have no idea what the toxicology report is proof of. Ward looked plenty agile and physically capable on the track. #45 missed Ward by several feet. If Stewart had continued on the path he was, the normal yellow flag behavior, would have missed Ward easily.

Why the grand jury people couldn't see that is beyond me. It is as plain as the nose on the faces of all present.

I'm sorry y'all, OJ was found not guilty also. Stewart is guilty as sin on this one.

And hence he deserved what happened and I have no sympathy. Good guy or not.

If by "mature" you mean "I do what I want but you must avoid me at all costs, you are right.

Well, I guess you don't like the tox report either. Lets toss that out then. Lets keep all that we need to convict and anything exonerating should be tossed . Oh hell, lets just hang him because he isn't popular and damned be any evidence. Seriously? Your prejudice is even flowing out onto my keyboard.

So now you think you are an accident expert and you have video that shows more data than what the GJ has? If 2 accident investigators don't see it, I think they have more street cred than you or I will ever have, put together and doubled too.

Well, the GJ didn't find even enough of a case to take it to trial but you are certain he is guilty? Are you hiding evidence that they are not in possession of? I know I don't have more than a couple of videos without the enhancements nor do I have any accident investigator credentials.

Most important, I don't have any desire to convict someone WITHOUT due process or evidence.

aklim 09-26-2014 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012 (Post 3390002)
Stewart was in long rehab not that long ago. It was a fatal incident with a motor vehicle. Stewart should have been checked. Might have a pain-killer med problem. The fat ass puke has been treated like royalty from the git-go. Boggles the mind.

So maybe we should test every accident driver who has been in rehab? Back in 96 I broke my ankle and a couple years ago, I was in rehab for surgery. If I have an accident today, should I be suspect since you don't like me and I have to prove my innocence? OTOH, if I am liked by you, I get a pass? Maybe cops should have an additional column in the computer which gets checked if you were in rehab X years ago and if pulled over, immediately sent for a tox report?

aklim 09-26-2014 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012 (Post 3390003)
The grand jury was composed of idiots, that much is clear.

Yeah, a dick. A guy who would hurl his car at a human form on the track, just because he could. Why people have their noses so far up Stewart's butt is beyond me.

I do have a clue on that though. The US public treats NASCAR champs like royalty. Ward was a hot headed kid. Stewart is a hot-headed NACSAR champ. Big difference.

Well, I guess your opinion is that if the legal system sides with me, it is good and we must respect the decision. If it sides against me, they are fools?

Probably the same reason you are chomping at the bit to put the noose around his neck.

Ward was an idiot that risked his own life and the lives of anyone else. Go hang yourself if you want. Just don't take others with you. As to Stewart, I don't think he IS a champ. He WAS. "WAS" as in history, "has been", "not lately".

cmac2012 09-26-2014 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim (Post 3390014)
And hence he deserved what happened and I have no sympathy. Good guy or not.

If by "mature" you mean "I do what I want but you must avoid me at all costs, you are right.

Well, I guess you don't like the tox report either. Lets toss that out then. Lets keep all that we need to convict and anything exonerating should be tossed . Oh hell, lets just hang him because he isn't popular and damned be any evidence. Seriously? Your prejudice is even flowing out onto my keyboard.

So now you think you are an accident expert and you have video that shows more data than what the GJ has? If 2 accident investigators don't see it, I think they have more street cred than you or I will ever have, put together and doubled too.

Well, the GJ didn't find even enough of a case to take it to trial but you are certain he is guilty? Are you hiding evidence that they are not in possession of? I know I don't have more than a couple of videos without the enhancements nor do I have any accident investigator credentials.

Most important, I don't have any desire to convict someone WITHOUT due process or evidence.

Convict?! I can't convict the guy. We are playing armchair detective, you don't get that? As for me having evidence, it's on the video. Utterly clear.

The kid was no more than 50% at fault. Emergency personnel get out on the track under a yellow flag. We see it on the video about 15 seconds after Ward gets hit.

Bottom line: Stewart gunned the engine and steered upfield in a negligent, reckless, and threatening manner.

When TS threw his helmet at that car at a NASCAR race, the driver could have steered over and taken him out, but he didn't. Stewart was not a big enough man to be civilized.

aklim 09-26-2014 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012 (Post 3390165)
Convict?! I can't convict the guy. We are playing armchair detective, you don't get that? As for me having evidence, it's on the video. Utterly clear.

The kid was no more than 50% at fault. Emergency personnel get out on the track under a yellow flag. We see it on the video about 15 seconds after Ward gets hit.

Bottom line: Stewart gunned the engine and steered upfield in a negligent, reckless, and threatening manner.

When TS threw his helmet at that car at a NASCAR race, the driver could have steered over and taken him out, but he didn't. Stewart was not a big enough man to be civilized.

Actually you are playing armchair judge, jury and executioner. As to the video, it is clearer to the GJ seeing haw the have all the extra data you don't have. It is clear to them. They had accident personnel to agree with it. I don't believe our credentials, impressive as they are can be of my use here.

And if he sat in the crashed vehicle or move to the side like he was supposed to, what percentage?\

Until you are a crash investigator with al the toys at your disposal. it is going to be hard to determine.

cmac2012 09-27-2014 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim (Post 3390170)
Actually you are playing armchair judge, jury and executioner. As to the video, it is clearer to the GJ seeing haw the have all the extra data you don't have. It is clear to them. They had accident personnel to agree with it. I don't believe our credentials, impressive as they are can be of my use here.

And if he sat in the crashed vehicle or move to the side like he was supposed to, what percentage?\

Until you are a crash investigator with al the toys at your disposal. it is going to be hard to determine.

Yeah, and if he'd taken up knitting instead of sprint car racing, he would still be playing baseball with his buddies.

The point is chief, getting out and complaining about being done wrong is/was a defacto part of the sport. Word is from reliable sources it happens a lot. And Stewart himself has done it.

Me executioner? Dude, step away from the hyperbole. I have a right to an opinion, same as you. The GJ saw the 1st video and the 2nd which word has it was much like the first. It was obvious. I can scarcely believe that people deny it. My faith in human kind has been shaken. The obnoxious puke is a superstar so he gets a pass.

If car #45 had hit him or some other car who obviously had no inkling that he was on the track had hit him it would be completely different. Stewart gunned the engine and steered upfield. IT WAS OBVIOUS.

The people on the GJ saw that video and were concerned about the legal burden for bringing charges and conviction.
Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim (Post 3390021)
Probably the same reason you are chomping at the bit to put the noose around his neck.

This is the kind of hyperbole you run to for shelter. I've said at various points that no way do I think he intended to kill him, let alone planned it. There would be no noose in my perfect world. If there would be any sentence, I would have thought 6 to 24 months would have been plenty. But my best guess was no jail time - suspended sentence. But c'mon, let's be honest: TS had a hand in this. His behavior was not correct. It was pea-brained, arrogant, uber competitiveness. It's a game. Auto racing is another game. If TS had been half the honest, decent person he expects others to be when he gesticulates at them on the track, we'd have never heard of this story.

aklim 09-27-2014 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012 (Post 3390199)
Yeah, and if he'd taken up knitting instead of sprint car racing, he would still be playing baseball with his buddies.

The point is chief, getting out and complaining about being done wrong is/was a defacto part of the sport. Word is from reliable sources it happens a lot. And Stewart himself has done it.

Me executioner? Dude, step away from the hyperbole. I have a right to an opinion, same as you. The GJ saw the 1st video and the 2nd which word has it was much like the first. It was obvious. I can scarcely believe that people deny it. My faith in human kind has been shaken. The obnoxious puke is a superstar so he gets a pass.

If car #45 had hit him or some other car who obviously had no inkling that he was on the track had hit him it would be completely different. Stewart gunned the engine and steered upfield. IT WAS OBVIOUS.

The people on the GJ saw that video and were concerned about the legal burden for bringing charges and conviction.
This is the kind of hyperbole you run to for shelter. I've said at various points that no way do I think he intended to kill him, let alone planned it. There would be no noose in my perfect world. If there would be any sentence, I would have thought 6 to 24 months would have been plenty. But my best guess was no jail time - suspended sentence. But c'mon, let's be honest: TS had a hand in this. His behavior was not correct. It was pea-brained, arrogant, uber competitiveness. It's a game. Auto racing is another game. If TS had been half the honest, decent person he expects others to be when he gesticulates at them on the track, we'd have never heard of this story.

Not a chance. If he had his temper under control, he'd be alive, plain and simple.

The point being? Is it stupid regardless of who does it? I don't care if the King of England does it. It is dumb. Whomever does it endangers themselves and more importantly, anyone else. Go play in traffic if you want but don't drag anyone else into it.

He is a superstar only in your mind. He hasn't really won much since eons ago. But he is a jerk therefore guilty of whatever you can hang onto him. My point is that your opinion is overruled by 2 accident experts so unless you have some credentials or some way to say that everyone was dazzled by a current nobody, I think their opinion has a loud voice whereas yours has little more than a squeak.

OBVIOUS from what perspective? Do you have access to the enhancements they have? Do you have the training they do?

Decency? Seriously? Even if you asked Stalin, he'd tell you that he believes he was doing the decent thing. What you are meaning to say is that you have the right to do stupid things. I have the responsibility to safeguard your safety at any costs. Sorry. You do stupid things, you bite the bullet. I have no sympathy for your stupidity. It is NOT my responsibility to safeguard you from yourself. If I do, it is your good fortune. If I don't, tough.

cmac2012 09-27-2014 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim (Post 3390278)
Not a chance. If he had his temper under control, he'd be alive, plain and simple.

The point being? Is it stupid regardless of who does it? I don't care if the King of England does it. It is dumb. Whomever does it endangers themselves and more importantly, anyone else. Go play in traffic if you want but don't drag anyone else into it.

He is a superstar only in your mind. He hasn't really won much since eons ago. But he is a jerk therefore guilty of whatever you can hang onto him. My point is that your opinion is overruled by 2 accident experts so unless you have some credentials or some way to say that everyone was dazzled by a current nobody, I think their opinion has a loud voice whereas yours has little more than a squeak.

OBVIOUS from what perspective? Do you have access to the enhancements they have? Do you have the training they do?

Decency? Seriously? Even if you asked Stalin, he'd tell you that he believes he was doing the decent thing. What you are meaning to say is that you have the right to do stupid things. I have the responsibility to safeguard your safety at any costs. Sorry. You do stupid things, you bite the bullet. I have no sympathy for your stupidity. It is NOT my responsibility to safeguard you from yourself. If I do, it is your good fortune. If I don't, tough.

Stalin? Take a deep breath there pal.

Who are these grand jury geniuses you speak of? Average people according to everything I've read.

The stories I've read have it that the other video is much like the first. They saw them at various slo-mo speeds. The real time and one slo-mo is enough for me. If TS had been taking the shortest route around the track while under the yellow, IF HE'D HAD HIS TEMPER UNDER CONTROL, he'd not have gone through this shyte storm, and he wouldn't have this thing hanging over his head for the rest of his life.

Yes, it was obvious. That you can't see it, refuse to see it, speaks volumes regarding your mental acumen and honesty.

Driving sprint cars is a tad dumb on the personal safety level by itself. Ward was not struck by anyone else and would have not been struck by Stewart had Stewart not intentionally and illogically changed course.

The grand jury let Stewart off because it's very hard to prove intent and because many people have an attitude about weed. IMO. I don't have the requirements for burden of proof as I don't have the power to restrict his freedom in any way. And has-been, whatever, the NASCAR faithful still love their mouthy bad boy. The guy has a well documented history of being a prick and he demonstrated the full range of his arrogance in this episode.

aklim 09-27-2014 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012 (Post 3390317)
Who are these grand jury geniuses you speak of? Average people according to everything I've read.

The stories I've read have it that the other video is much like the first. They saw them at various slo-mo speeds. The real time and one slo-mo is enough for me.

If TS had been taking the shortest route around the track while under the yellow, IF HE'D HAD HIS TEMPER UNDER CONTROL, he'd not have gone through this shyte storm, and he wouldn't have this thing hanging over his head for the rest of his life.

Yes, it was obvious. That you can't see it, refuse to see it, speaks volumes regarding your mental acumen and honesty.

Driving sprint cars is a tad dumb on the personal safety level by itself. Ward was not struck by anyone else and would have not been struck by Stewart had Stewart not intentionally and illogically changed course.

The grand jury let Stewart off because it's very hard to prove intent and because many people have an attitude about weed. IMO. I don't have the requirements for burden of proof as I don't have the power to restrict his freedom in any way. And has-been, whatever, the NASCAR faithful still love their mouthy bad boy. The guy has a well documented history of being a prick and he demonstrated the full range of his arrogance in this episode.

See, that was the problem right there. They heard the testimony of a couple of accident experts and formed an opinion. Maybe you should have given them your expert opinion so they would have something to consider. BTW, what are YOUR credentials? I mean, we need some accident experts to counter the other 2 accident experts.

Can you show me the video of what you are talking about because last time I didn't see the "overlaid with grids and data" part that might shed some light on the situation. What else was presented to the GJ by the experts, I do not know but was it in the video you are so fond of? Who would take me step by step thru each and every frame?

Lets speculate. Had Ward done the right thing instead of following his befuddled mind and not walked onto the track and instead made a hasty retreat to safety, what is it you think you have happened?

Regale me with YOUR honesty. Every other post of yours has "TS is a jerk". Relevance? I think not. Drugs can stay in the system for a month. Not in enough quantity to be judgment impairing but you seem to try to find some excuse for that too. The only thing you cannot say is someone put a gun to Ward's head and made him head out onto the track, YET.

It may be dumb but running out into traffic kinda takes the cake, or do you disagree?

Again, WGAS about TS and his behavior? What is the relevance? You keep trying to bring it up since that is all you got to justify your opinion. If you are a certified accident expert with access to all the data, feel free to say so. Right now, all you have is a whole lot of nothing except a couple of videos on Youtube and a dislike for the man's attitude.

So TS has been doing the same thing. Can you honestly say you would have been so worked up if the position was reversed and it was TS lying in the autopsy room? I think not. All you seem to carp on and on and on about is his bad behavior. I'm sorry but until you have the street creds, I think the accident experts are more credible than you are ever going to be concerning this accident. Or do you have some proof that the GJ totally ignored what the experts said? All you got is grasping at straws because you don't like TS so you go all out to vilify the man. I have NO knowledge of him before this but it is irrelevant. Either you can prove he did it or you can't.


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