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-   -   Tony Stewart Runs over Competitor after altercation... Murder? Manslaughter? (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/off-topic-discussion/358480-tony-stewart-runs-over-competitor-after-altercation-murder-manslaughter.html)

cmac2012 10-02-2014 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim (Post 3392025)
My bet is ZERO. As I have asked before about his credentials and he has deftly avoided the question, I am led to believe that he has none. All he rails about is "TS is a jerk". Ward, bit the dust because of his stupidity. Ward gets high enough to impair judgment judgment and he tries to say "well pot can stay in the system for a while.". IMO, he is blinded by the fact that TS is a jerk and got away, as he sees, with running over some other moron on the track who didn't have the good sense to stay sober for the race and got "Darwined Out".

Fact is, TS is said to be a jerk. But so what? Being a jerk is different from guilty. Maybe, I'm not a mind reader, maybe he cut too close to the line because he didn't give a crap about Ward and his antics. I don't know. However, what I do know is that Ward, of his own free will AND ACCORDING TO TOX SCREENS WAS STONNED OUT OF HIS GOURD, took a stroll up the track WHERE HE HAD NO BUSINESS TO BE. They way I look at it, he stuck his neck out where he had no business to be and should have been in the other direction so it is all his blame. Maybe he would have been better of if he had been sober. No different from a drunk driver who plays in traffic and someone doesn't risk themselves to avoid him or didn't make the cut avoiding him. Sorry, it is all you. Had he been sober and walking towards the safety area and anyone ran him down, I can have sympathy. Kid stuck his hand in a fire, WGAS?

Without clue. The kid may haved smoked the day before, his family claims they were together for 10 hours before the race and no indication of pot was to be seen.

His movements on the track indidcate to me that adrenaline was the main substance moving him. He looked plenty agile. The other driver Kinney said: 'I saw him just fine. No one else hit him.' Stewart gunned his engine and targeted the kid. Unmistakeable. I don't need no gawddammed racing experience to see that.

This did not happen at full out racing speed. I am a former professional driver. I drove nearly one million miles on the streets of Seattle, Oakland, San Francisco, and Marin county often with passengers in the car. The conditions ran the range: dry, wet, dark, snowy. This was higher speed than the 35 at which Stewart struck Ward. And often in heavy traffick. My only chargeable accident was a 5 mph rear ender in freeway stop and go. Looked aside at the wrong moment. Never even in a serious accident that wasn't my fault. And never with passengers aboard. This macho crap about 'you don't understand racing' is tiresome and seriously so.

I'm not some virgin in the world. I saw what Stewart did.

t walgamuth 10-02-2014 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012 (Post 3392098)
Without clue. The kid had smoked the day before, which is likely, his family claims they were together for 10 hours before the race and no indication of pot was to be seen.

His movements on the track indidcate to me that adrenaline was the main substance moving him. He looked plenty agile. The other driver Kinney said: 'I saw him just fine. No one else hit him.' Stewart gunned his engine and targeted the kid. Unmistakeable. I don't need no gawddammed racing experience to see that.

This did not happen at full out racing speed. I am a former professional driver. I drove one or two million miles on the streets of Seattle, Oakland, San Francisco, and Marin county often with passengers in the car. The conditions ran the range: dry, wet, dark, snowy. This was higher speed than the 35 at which Stewart struck Ward. And often in heavy traffick. My only chargeable accident was a 5 mph rear ender in freeway stop and go. Looked aside at the wrong moment. This macho crap about 'you don't understand racing' is tiresome and seriously so.

I'm not some virgin in the world. I saw what Stewart did.

The trouble is we don't know what was in Tony's mind at the time of the confrontation.

cmac2012 10-02-2014 02:28 PM

We can see what his car did. He changed course to go upfield towards Ward. Careful examination of the slo-mo reveals that. You can see his car fishtailing as he approaches Ward. Clearly he goosed the throttle. I suspect he was trying to intimidate him. Not smart.

aklim 10-02-2014 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012 (Post 3392086)
I have spent many, many hours in vehicles traveling far faster than Stewart was traveling when he went out of his way to hot dog Ward. I've spent much time at those speeds and more on dirt, gravel, and icy roads. I have an understanding of physics.

Where and why people come up with such bull$h!t is beyond me. My best guess is that they are racing/NASCAR boosters much more concerned with avoiding a black eye for racing than they are with the demonstrable fact that their lovable bad boy of racing used his 700 hp car to target a hot-headed kid standing on the track in his skin and not much more.

My opinion is easily seen if you watch the slo-mo vid and look for the features I point out. Have you done so?

So besides you, who would agree that you are qualified to be an accident investigator? If you went up against those 2 experts, do you imagine you are credible? I have an understanding of physics myself but I don't think I am a physicist.

I don't believe racing will die either way. Not cutting into my paycheck so I don't care. What is you next theory?

I did. Several times. I still didn't see where it showed his thoughts. You have been conjuring up all kinds of excuses for Ward.

75Sv1 10-02-2014 03:43 PM

OK, explain the physics if the wing of a dirt track car has the weight of a human being hanging on it? Car going as said 30 mph.

aklim 10-02-2014 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012 (Post 3392091)
'Wreck my race time?!" This right here is indication that you don't get this story for one second. You cannot pass during a yellow flag. He was behind #45 who somehow managed to steer his car past Ward without using his engine or even steering, except mabye by a tiny amount. Stewart, OTOH, gunned his engine and steered his wheels to go upfield on the track, towards Ward, a move that made him take a long route around the track, which may have added .09 seconds to his lap time, which didn't matter anyway because they were under a yellow flag.

Ward's behavior was not bright, OTOH it was common and Stewart himself has done similarly.

And HELL YES, especially under a yellow flag you make a point of not hitting people, instead of going out of your way to do so.

I stand with jaw agape and the bizarre "thinking" of people regarding this story. They walk among us . . .

I get that part of the story. Yes, according to NASCAR rules, he is to exercise caution and cut speed to whatever it is that it is previously agreed on in the rule book. Why did he take the upfield path? IDK. Was there a reason? IDK. If you can prove there is no logical reason, I suggest you present it to the DA.

Again, what's your point? Who cares if Stewart and others have done it? Lots of people have driven drunk. Doesn't make it a good idea. Stupid is stupid. Stupid deserves what it gets.

And you can prove that he intended to hit Ward? What new theory? Last time it was because some young punk beat him (a has been).

Good thing there is you to keep us on the straight and narrow. What a thankless job, Larry.

aklim 10-02-2014 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012 (Post 3392092)
Expert: and 'ex' is something that used to be and a spurt is a small drip under pressure. We know nothing about these experts, I've read enough to conclude to my satisfaction that the DA is clueless on this story and grand juries are peopled with citizens much like those on regular juries but with more time on their hands.

If you have read my analysis and have rebuttal for my argument, I have missed up. Go for it. Prove me wrong.

I see. You know nothing of these experts and that is all you have? Again, what is YOUR expertise?

Have you forwarded it to the DA? I'll bet he will take you seriously when he sees the calculations and proof you have. Again, I am not an accident investigator.

aklim 10-02-2014 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012 (Post 3392098)
Without clue. The kid may haved smoked the day before, his family claims they were together for 10 hours before the race and no indication of pot was to be seen.

His movements on the track indidcate to me that adrenaline was the main substance moving him. He looked plenty agile. The other driver Kinney said: 'I saw him just fine. No one else hit him.' Stewart gunned his engine and targeted the kid. Unmistakeable. I don't need no gawddammed racing experience to see that.

This did not happen at full out racing speed. I am a former professional driver. I drove nearly one million miles on the streets of Seattle, Oakland, San Francisco, and Marin county often with passengers in the car. The conditions ran the range: dry, wet, dark, snowy. This was higher speed than the 35 at which Stewart struck Ward. And often in heavy traffick. My only chargeable accident was a 5 mph rear ender in freeway stop and go. Looked aside at the wrong moment. Never even in a serious accident that wasn't my fault. And never with passengers aboard. This macho crap about 'you don't understand racing' is tiresome and seriously so.

I'm not some virgin in the world. I saw what Stewart did.

The family that sticks up for their loved one. Can't say I saw that coming. Bottom line is the tox screen said he had enough to impair judgment. I suppose you want to dispute that too? Maybe the people analyzing the sample don't know what they are talking about either? If I consumed enough alcohol, I could be dry for a few hours and still have enough to blow a DUI charge. Did he toke before the race? Definitely. How long before? Don't know. Enough to be considered impaired? Seems that way.

Good thing because I suspect you don't have any. The other drive is more credible than you will ever be.

My father has been flying in and out of countries for over 40 years. He has been to places I have never heard of and has logged more airline miles than I know of. I wouldn't call him an expert to investigate a crash. You were a Taxi Driver. No offense but that doesn't strike me as an accident investigator. We aren't talking Taxi driving here. I might consider asking for your help if I wanted to learn how to drive a Taxi but calling yourself an accident investigator? Seriously? I suppose you would call a nurse in a hospital a neuro surgeon too?

aklim 10-02-2014 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012 (Post 3392102)
We can see what his car did. He changed course to go upfield towards Ward. Careful examination of the slo-mo reveals that. You can see his car fishtailing as he approaches Ward. Clearly he goosed the throttle. I suspect he was trying to intimidate him. Not smart.

Could be he is. I am not clairvoyant. IDK. Did the collision occur? Yes. Was he trying to intimidate him? Possible. Why? IDK. Run him over? I don't see any way to know without reading his mind.

cmac2012 10-03-2014 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 75Sv1 (Post 3392129)
OK, explain the physics if the wing of a dirt track car has the weight of a human being hanging on it? Car going as said 30 mph.

Have you actually watched the slo-mo vid? The car fistails to the right before Ward even disappears from view, IOW before he grabs it. During the time he's hanging on it, it fishtails to the left. Then to the right again as he falls off, and perhaps the tire got his head then. Those cars have 700 hp.

He is already going upfield before he strikes Ward. Look at the slo mo. He is moving away from the pole quite a bit just in the two or so lengths while he is in the frame. He was close to the pole just before entering the frame so clearly he veered towards Ward. You can hear the gunning of the engine in the real time and you can very clearly see his front wheels turn to the right and back to the left quickly. The car obeys those wheel commands. It is so obvious. Stewart aimed his car at that boy whether he meant to hit him or not.

cmac2012 10-03-2014 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim (Post 3392132)
I see. You know nothing of these experts and that is all you have? Again, what is YOUR expertise?

Have you forwarded it to the DA? I'll bet he will take you seriously when he sees the calculations and proof you have. Again, I am not an accident investigator.

Good Lord, stand up and take a bow. Idiocracy is upon us. You can't even think for yourself. Accident investigator?? I have eyes. It is so goddamned obvious.

I weep for our species. You are an embarrassment to thinking people. Your brain works like a jerking knee.

cmac2012 10-03-2014 03:42 AM

Speaking of the DA:

Here is an account of what the DA presented to the GJ:

Quote:

"The grand jury has today completed its investigation. During the course of the grand jury presentation, approximately two dozen witnesses testified. These included a number of race car drivers, racetrack employees and volunteers, two accident reconstructionists, medical personnel and a number of police officers. In addition, of the grand jury reviewed a number of photographs and video recordings as well as other documentary evidence. After listening to and questioning all of the witnesses and reviewing all of the evidence, the grand jury has determined there is no basis to charge Tony Stewart with any crimes. This case was therefore no-billed by the grand jury. I'd be happy to answer any questions you may have."
Tony Stewart not charged in death of Kevin Ward Jr.

Other remarks by Tantillo:

Quote:

Tantillo added that, "the grand jury was never tasked with the responsibility of anything other than to determine whether there was enough evidence to file charges against Tony Stewart. They weren't considering whether anybody else was at fault. However, I'm sure from their deliberations and discussions that the fact that Kevin Ward was observed running basically two-thirds of the track into a hot track in the middle of other cars that still were racing played a big, big factor in their decision."
Quote:

Tantillo said two videos of the incident were examined, a clip that went viral on YouTube and another from the racetrack. The videos were run at 75%, 50% and 25% speed and overlaid with grids and data and "were an important piece of the evidence," Tantillo said. "The videos did not demonstrate any aberrational driving by Tony Stewart until the point of impact with Kevin Ward, at which point his vehicle veered to the right up the track as a result of the collision. Prior to that, his course was pretty straight."

Tantillo said there was no toxicology performed on Tony Stewart, but that a certified drug recognition expert interviewed him on the night of Ward's death and determined no basis for alcohol consumption or drug impairment.
A number of things are wrong here.

"into a hot track in the middle of other cars that still were racing"

Yellow flag speeds of about 35 to 40 mph are way less than racing speeds. Ward knew the yellow flag would be in effect until his car was taken off the track. One can see the firetruck looking thing show up seconds after he was hit. His behavior was dumb but not suicdically dumb as running into the track during a hot track when racing was going on would be.

The most egregious example of poor thinking was shown here:

"The videos did not demonstrate any aberrational driving by Tony Stewart until the point of impact with Kevin Ward, at which point his vehicle veered to the right up the track as a result of the collision. Prior to that, his course was pretty straight." - Tantillo

The DA has demonstrated that he has approximately no understanding of physics or any ability to examine evidence of this sort. No "aberrational driving," his "course was straight?"

If by straight he means that Stewart was following the curve of the track down in the sweet spot, following behing #45, the video evidence indicates he was doing that until shortly before he came into the frame. At that point he is still quite close to the pole (the inside edge of the track) but is clearly moving away from it. In the car length or two before he reaches Ward and Ward disappears from view, he clearly has traveled a good bit upfield. Contrast to #45 and the difference is what you call obivous. I can tell he must have been near the pole before he enters the frame because the angle he's on in the frame would have had him in the wall if begun sooner or in the middle of the track.

You can see Ward begin to backpedal about the time Stewart would have veered towards him. I've already described how the fishtailing indicates that he gunned the engine and how the movements of the car while Ward is hanging onto it indicate that Ward's weight had a neglible effect.

There is no new evidence of any kind that can over-rule the clear fact that Stewart's driving was, in fact, aberrational. If the DA is clueless enough not to see it, one wonders what sort of guidance he gave the GJ.

It is really, really hard to figure how people can be this wrong. Several possibilities come to mind.

1. He's an idiot.
2. He's a hardcore NASCAR fan or has family who is and they tainted his thinking with repitition of the standard BS lines about can't see to the right, too dark, etc.
3. He thinks pot is evil, dirty, sinful.
4. Or he's a corrupt som-***** who knows that a Tony Stewart trial would be a headache and ultimate black eye for his community.

Whatever, the DA is utterly wrong and the GJ also, whether he influenced them or not.

Gentlepersons of the Bimmerfest informal investigative unit: if you can't find the stones to tell me why I'm wrong here I'm going to lose respect for you. The hooting mockery chorus doesn't get it done, mucho muy perdonnes.

Tantillo:

http://s20.postimg.org/m24v7gpr1/Tantillo.jpg

http://s20.postimg.org/d5u33iz4t/Tantillo_2.jpg

t walgamuth 10-03-2014 06:17 AM

The key phrase from the grand jury follows: the grand jury has determined there is no basis to charge Tony Stewart with any crimes.

They do not say that Tony did nothing at all wrong. They simply say that there was no crime they could charge him with. They are not mind readers either.

75Sv1 10-03-2014 07:19 AM

I saw both videos. I saw the first one the day after on a friends smart phone. The video was played 3-4 times. The angle to me blocked any view of Wards actions behind the car. I do think TS drive a bit higher line than the proceeding car, but not way up the race track. I did hear the car rev, but from my view/perspective, Ward was behind the car at that time.

One of ESPN's stories one of the commenters posted the video (Slo-mo) of the second video. His statement was Ward grabbed the wing of TS car. I'm like what!!. I watched the video. I did not see Ward back off. He made a bee line to TS car. Jumped over the front wheel, grabbed the wing, was torqued into a cartwheel.

Yes, I know how much HP these cars have. Know people who own, raced and work on them. I do work in the auto industry. Some of the parts I have made or had a hand in the making of have run around Indy 500. Not an expert though. So, I will make my own judgement.

t walgamuth 10-03-2014 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 75Sv1 (Post 3392375)
I saw both videos. I saw the first one the day after on a friends smart phone. The video was played 3-4 times. The angle to me blocked any view of Wards actions behind the car. I do think TS drive a bit higher line than the proceeding car, but not way up the race track. I did hear the car rev, but from my view/perspective, Ward was behind the car at that time.

One of ESPN's stories one of the commenters posted the video (Slo-mo) of the second video. His statement was Ward grabbed the wing of TS car. I'm like what!!. I watched the video. I did not see Ward back off. He made a bee line to TS car. Jumped over the front wheel, grabbed the wing, was torqued into a cartwheel.

Yes, I know how much HP these cars have. Know people who own, raced and work on them. I do work in the auto industry. Some of the parts I have made or had a hand in the making of have run around Indy 500. Not an expert though. So, I will make my own judgement.

I see it about this way too. I do believe Tony was higher on the track than he should have been. Was he challenging Ward? Perhaps but perhaps he did not see him either. Unless one is capable of mind reading one cannot know what was in Tony's mind at the time.

In thinking of top race drivers there are many who make a very excellent impression of being polite gentlemen. I think though if you scratch the surface of Al Unser senior, or Rick mears or Johnny Rutherford you will find a very tough individual who will take nothing from anybody when push comes to shove.

Does Tony act like a dick? Sometimes, but that sort of bad boy image is encouraged by Nascar.


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