This is a controversial thread so WATCH OUT!!!

[The Godfather]

Originally posted by TXBill
What's wrong with Korean parts, was that some kind of slur?

?????? Are you being a funny man, or trying to look for crap once again?

[The Godfather]

I was lost a for a second, b/c you brought up the word "slur."

Not like I said "Kor parts." lol. Shoot...


Korean parts..yes.. well cars in a whole. My latest experience was about a year ago when I came to Hyundai to test drive tiburon. I went in, the car is brand new, all cool looking like a Ferrari... 10 miles on it. The sunroof broke, and the seat did too. That was it for me! lol

[tkd_M119]

blackmercedes -

I have to disagree with you about an old Q45 being worthless -

I have both a 92 Q45 and a 92 W124 400e. Thought the Q45 doesnot have as much "character" as a W124 it does have it's strengths in places the 400e does not.

Q45's transmission is SUPERIOR - MUCH smoother and quicker to respond - make the W124s tranny feel sub-par. MUCH quicker off the line. It has also been much cheaper to maintain. I have nearly double the mileage on the Q as I have on the 400e - guess which one has cost significantly more to run? The Q gets 4 mpg better on the open road. NHV levels are much lower in the Q. Overall ergonomics/ingrees/egress are superior as well. Paint looks to be of significantly better quality. AC is SUPERIOR both in longevity and performance - the digital controler imidiately changes temp as well as blows cold instantly and does not howl like a gale wind when turned up.

Yes there are places where the 400e bests the Q45 - but please do not think they are worthless!

I love them both!

[skalie]

Voted for Mercedes, won't drive anything under 25 years old, me, and you won't catch me in a 25 year old Toyota.

[blackmercedes]

Originally posted by tkd_M119
blackmercedes -

I have to disagree with you about an old Q45 being worthless -

Whoops. I meant in terms of their MSRP. They can be troublesome, but I have heard of plenty of owners that have lots of trouble free miles on their early Q45's. My comment was directly in relation to deprecation for the original owner...

I just read the entire thread here and it was nice to hear clean and mature points of views on the never ending Mercedes/Lexus comparison.

I remember seeing a similar thread on www.mbworld.org where the moderator of all people was categorically dismissing the Lexus as not being worthy for a comparison to MB and when somebody suggested otherwise, he defaulted to dismiss those opinions based on silly arguments such as that they were merely envious of people who could afford to drive a real car. Personally I get embarrassed on behalf of MB brand when jerks like that hail the MB brand. I like to think MB drivers are a little more educated than that.

I for one very much agree with blackmercedes. Lexus enjoys a brand reputation that we true MB enthusiast envy. I am not afraid to say that. I have driven the LS430 and I have developed this love/hate relation ship to it. My brain keeps telling me that it would be a sensible buy an I would truely enjoy the quality ride and comfort. But then my heart and performance deamon sets their eyes on a AMG and I then hate the fact that MB dosen't enjoy the Lexus reliability/customer relation reputation.

I will be driving MB for the rest of my life.
In 2000, we leased a starmarked S500 from -96 and I still miss that car. By far overshines the LS430. But reports on maintenance costs seems scary to me.
Just bought a -89 560sel one owner perfect CA car with 63000 miles. I believe I can afford that maintenance. - and I am dying to drive it on the 24th when my father in law drives it up to Seattle.

just my 2 cent worth

Jari Kristensen

Mercedes-Benz has all the glory in my eyes.

[rrobben]

I used to own a Lexus, and I now have a 93 500 SEL. I've never owned a BMW, but I did consider it before I went with the old Benz. I can vouch for what Rebenz wrote a couple of weeks ago. My Lexus was NEVER in the shop. Not once, for anything other than scheduled maint. That's over 5.5 years of ownership. Since I can't really speak about BMW, I'll only comapare the other 2. The fit and finish of both cars is excellent. The materials are both very high quality - nice wood and leather, comfortable interiors, etc. I think the big difference comes in styling. Almost every Lexus, with the exception of the new SC430, is very plain, and somewhat boring. Stark comparionson to MB or BMW. ( I like the new 7-series styling BTW) In many ways, the largest influencing factor in a car becomming a "classic" is the styling. Is the car exciting? Is it unique? Is it timeless? I can't tell you how many times I mistook a Avelon or even a Camry from a distance, for my Lexus. That just never happens with a MB. I'm also very turned-off by the Chrysler influence. I just don't know if I could bring myself to buy a new MB. I would always be trying to figure out what parts were actually Chrysler junk.

[yal]

Reading this poll/thread I think Lexus has done exactly what they set out to do. Everybody smirked (I know I damn near cracked up) when they announced they were going after MB and BMW. But there was one thing they had in their favor that should have wiped the smile from our faces and that was reliabilty and cost of ownership. Apparently consumers care about these two things...go figure.

It seems we mainly buy MB's for nostalgic and resale reasons. But what good is a good resale if the car was in the garage most of the time and never ran right for you

Like somebody said when it comes down to picking between the two it seems to come down to heart and brain...thats rather sad, for MB

I voted MB by the way. Ever since I got pulled in by the W126 I became a sucker for life

I voted M-B, but I might have voted BMW if we were still in the Pre-Bangle era...

[Mercedes Fred]

The mystique and reputation of the MB clearly outranks the posers bmw and lexus. In our culture, what is ultimately real is the facade, the appearance: content means nothing, i.e., is a coefficient of its media. Who is interested in a lexus? the same people who used to buy buick roadmasters. BMW's? 80's yuppies wanna-be's.

But for those of us who deal with cultural realities, we drive an mb becuase we bought the star

[Hatterasguy]

MB vs Lexus sounds a lot like the Ford vs Chevy rivelry. There both the right car for the right person. It depends on what you want out of a car. Do you want history, and tank like construction that stands the test of time buy a MB. If you want a good car to drive and forget about for a few years then buy a Lexus. If want want a fast car that is a lot of fun to drive and push to the limits then buy a BMW. "What ever floats your boat" as they say.

Originally posted by Hatterasguy
MB vs Lexus sounds a lot like the Ford vs Chevy rivelry. There both the right car for the right person. It depends on what you want out of a car. Do you want history, and tank like construction that stands the test of time buy a MB. If you want a good car to drive and forget about for a few years then buy a Lexus. If want want a fast car that is a lot of fun to drive and push to the limits then buy a BMW. "What ever floats your boat" as they say.

I agree with what you said Hatterasguy.
I want an MB no matter what, but, like you said, each one of them fits a different kind of person.
Tim

Well when Lexus first came out we all knew they were just rebadged Toyotas.

I've driven several of them. Sterile. Boring.
I've owned a 1993 300E, 1994 E420, and 2 E500's 1994.

I used to be a valet for the most expensive restaurant in Boston- L'espalier.

When I first started working there I thought Hondas were pretty good cars, I liked the "greased glass" steering of the Acuras. I though BMW's were zippy cars, I thought Mercedes cars were under powered save for the 420, 560 models.

Over time of driving these cars my opinons changed. I began to dislike driving the Hodas- with their thinnly upholstered seats- interiors that always got moldy smelling, I began to dislike the Acuras for the very reason I liked them in the first place - the effortless steering, I began to realize that BMW's were not the Ultimate driving machines and in the end only liked the M3 and the 535's and 635csi's. I realized that Jaguars were horrible investments in terms of their electrical systems and the XJ6 the worlds worst snow car.

Cars that I liked getting after working there for 4 years. Mercedes 560 SEL, 560 SL, 560Sec (a little slower always) Mercedes 190E 2.6, 300E, 400E, 500E, E420, E500, all the SL's, 6.9,even the 260se and older makes, For BMW 325's, M3, M5. Maserati Quatroporte, Maserati Biturbo, And for sports cars all the Ferraris, 944 Turbos, 928s4, 911 turbo, 930 turbo, one 959 (Smuggled into the USA as a 930- photos swapped- a true heart attack car), Lamborghini Miura, and to my surprise one souped up V8 Camaro that used to come in that was actually a lot of fun....(guilty pleasure).

Lexus...don't even remember them.

The Mercedes cars kept looking nice and keep running well year after year barely showing their age. Best longevity has to go to the BMW 635CSI which I routinely got in with 200K +on the odometer.....get this they seemed like they broke in AFTER 150,000 miles. They still ran like a top- great cars.

I also noticed the Mercedes Benz owners were more knowledgeable about cars and quality in general. They were more likely to complain if something was not right. Lexus owners did not seem like car enthusiasts. It would come as no surprise to me that Lexus owners LOVE LEXUS I mean....if you were used to being treatment from a Toyota dealership and went to Lexus...what would you think? Mercedes owners seem a little more spoiled and they expect the world from their dealerships...and most of the time...they do get the world from their dealerships.

How about this true story. I'm skiing in Vermont. Viti Mercedes of Rhode Island usually services my car. I call them - ask about a minor problem. I tell them that It will have to wait until I get back. They reply..."well...where are you". I say "Vermont- about 6 hours away". They replied- "a man will be at your door with a loaner car at 8:00am the next morning,,,,,we will repair your car and have it back to you at 8:00 am tomorrow". They did it. No hassles.

This went on like this for years. I could be in the Hamptons and they would service my car. Always returned interior cleaned and washed.

Well nothing is perfect...the dealership grew and last time I went in they totally screwed up everything- scratched my car, screwed up the Autobond application for preventing rock damage, and didn't do 1/2 of the work yet charged me anyway. Of course I was pissed...but what can you expect- perfection....everytime...FOREVER?? this is what Mercedes Owners have over the years come to expect. It took me a while to be thankful for all the years of good service I got. For the Toyota owner...this screw up could be the norm not the exception.

As for BMW-
BMW is totally driver biased- even the radio and climate controls face the driver. When I'm driving - I like the passenger to handle those things while I concentrate on driving. BMW resale? How can you afford to buy a BMW after you compare the resale to Mercedes? Also as a Valet I noticed that BMW's got broken into all the time and rarely did Mercedes. We used to call B-M-W..... Break-My-Window.

BMW does have sweet gearboxes though.

But Lexus? Quiet yes...but how quiet? On the charts Lexus looks really quiet... but the human ear doesn't hear like a microphone and we are more sensitive to certain frequencies- Mercedes engineers knew this and the car may not measure as quiet but is more pleasingly quiet- in a way - library quiet...calming. The MB engineers took care to quiet the car as needed to get the desired effect.

My Dad bought a Lexus- he LOVES it. I hate it. My dad can't even change a blown fuse. He likes his Lexus dealer. He already knew he was going to give the dealer top marks before he even walked into a Lexus dealership. I tell him stories of my Mercedes dealer and he is blown away and won't believe them- but he still thinks his Lexus dealer is the best. He loves watching the odometer on his Lexus go up....I hate to see mine climb on my E500 (Because someday the car might be a collectible)- my Dads car will never ever ever ever ever be collectible. No one would ever give a rusted out Lexus a second though to restoring it...they will rust slowly and unstoppably ...never to be rescued from a junkyard. Just another throwaway car ..they just aren't worth it. My Dad doesn't care. He just wants a car, he wants a Lexus. He will buy a Lexus again. He will never test drive a Mercedes. He has driven my E500 and doesn't like the steering that requires some effort, doesn't like my powerful brakes, doen't like my cars superior cornering ability, doesn't like the hunkered down feeling of this car sucking up the road. He likes his Lexus. IMHO many many Lexus owners are like my Dad. They don't know quality when they see it. They don't see the subtlties that makes Mercedes Benz ....MERCEDES-BENZ. My Dad doesn't mind drinking wine from a plastic cup. He is a Lexus Owner.

I was in a horrible accident in my E500. A 21 year old kid rammed my rear drivers quarter panel at about 70-mph while I was going 20mph in Harvard Square. Threw me sideways into a parked Honda Civic (could have been a Lexus) I hit the Civic with so much force that I put the trunk of the civic into the drivers seat.

I would have been dead in a top of the line Lexus.


Dead dead dead dead dead dead- squashed like a grape. The spare tire from the trunk would have been embedded in my head. My Dad wouldn't like Lexus if this happened to me.

I got out without a scratch.
Some back pain- still got it- no cuts though and the passenger compartment of my car was essentially intact- such a shame to see all that nice leather go to waste at the crusher.

Car was totaled- every panel hit and crushed except for the trunk and nose.


The high resale value of my E500 Mercedes got me into exactly the same car. If I had been in a 5 series BMW I would have had enough money from the insurance to buy a low mileage 3 series. That's just the way it is....reality can suck. I had to argue with the insurance company to find my way back into the same car....and show resale vale of various E500's. I would have lost if it had been a high end low mileage 1994 BMW.

I can drive a W124 mercedes in traffic with my left hand- controlling cruise control, directionals. Leaving my other hand free for an attractive lady sitting next to me that knows the difference between a Lexus BMW and a Mercedes. With a BMW I need to always drive with both hands - which is why you see more attractive women being driven by Mercedes Owners

Or I can drive my E500 two handed and make the world a blur.

erase, you should contact the "most expensive" car mags.

im sure they would be interested in adding a "valet's review" section to their testing criteria or editorial content.