I am saying its stupid to say black kids are stupid (like Cosby did, and like some here agree with) and not say the same thing about white kids. I see dumb whie tobacco chewing rednecks everyday, speaking offensively and looking generally like scum. You see, I think young people in general do not take care of themselves these days. It doesnt matter what color you are.

By the way, I always hear white people complain about things too... such as black people, foriegners, jews, etc. Whitey complains too. Everyone complains.

Bro, you're missing the whole damn point. Cosby is saying to his own race that they need to STOP making it "about race". The color of skin one is born with is no excuse for failure. No one said "black kids are stupid." You're missing the entire point. It's not the law students we're talking about. Law students are obviously among the more motivated members of society.... How many of your law student friends skip class and stand on a street corner, acting like a moron, as I described earlier? I'll venture a guess that NONE of them do, because they are busy DOING something with their lives.


You're exactly right, it's NOT a "color" thing. That's exactly the point, and that is exactly the point Cosby is trying to make. You're missing it entirely. We're saying that it's time to STOP using color and social class and sexual orientation and other perceived "differences" as an EXCUSE for one's lack of motivation and drive.

Stupid people come in all colors. What he's saying is: Don't be one. Less excuses, more action.

Mike

__________________
_____
1979 300 SD
350,000 miles
_____
1982 300D-gone---sold to a buddy
_____
1985 300TD
270,000 miles
_____
1994 E320
not my favorite, but the wife wanted it

www.myspace.com/mikemover
www.myspace.com/openskystudio
www.myspace.com/speedxband
www.myspace.com/openskyseparators
www.myspace.com/doubledrivemusic

Some of this is the fruits of segregation. From 1871 on, in the South we forced them to be a distinct culture, and over time that culture has developed different norms and different values, some of it bad. Also in the south, after generations of neglect of the school systems that served black people, a culture of ignorance arose. I see a great deal of difference in the young black people I meet who have been educated in Massachusetts schools and those of the same age here in Texas. I used to think it was the schools, but I now think the reason is that since blacks of Massachusetts have been educated on an equal footing with white people since 1860, they have built up a higher level of overall family education levels, resulting in a higher percentage of professional people in their family ranks, in turn resulting in an attitude that education has great value. In Texas, where black school systems have only in the last 20 years started getting either integrated to some degree or achieving educational parity with the white school systems, there is a multi-generational ambivalence to education that is passed down to the kids, many of whom do not have any professional people in their family ranks as role models, as a result of past injustice.

I think this is true in all the states in which segregation was practiced, and the reverse is true in states which have had educational parity during the same time frame. Cosby is right in one respect -thats all unfortunate, but the only ones who can overcome that is themselves. It is however, only going to get better with time. Equal access to quality education will eventually bring it about, unless of course "libertarians" succeed in destroying the public schools.

I have been fascinated to observe how popular " victum" status has become. Its almost like, " If I am a victum, then the problem is somebody else's fault:
However, it is ONLY by accepting responsibility for your present situation that you are empowered to make changes. I once heard a motivational speaker make that same statement. A murmur ran thru the audience. he was speaking about financial things, and he said " You are responsible for where you are right now" people didn't want to hear that message. But he went on to demonstrate that ONLY by accepting responsibility do you have the power to make changes. IF I understand that I have made the choices that brought me to where I am, THEN I also have the ability to make other choices and thus change the results.
I think that was Cosby's message. "Our" kids are making poor choices--they choose to be ignorant and anti social. They need to make better choices, and the adults in their lives need to encourage and support those better choices. I think all children start out with a thirst for knowledge--somehow, society either fosters, or destroys that thirst.
The choice is ours, as a society, to make.

Equating "quality education" and "public schools" is quite a stretch nowadays.

Public schools are already being destroyed, and it's not the "libertarians" doing it. NEA....Ritalin, anyone?....Lousy parenting....

We're spending more and more and more tax dollars on government schools, yet they continue to get worse.

Us "libertarians" are just advocating replacing this downward-spiraling, system with a private system that has already been proven to produce much better results.

Mike

__________________
_____
1979 300 SD
350,000 miles
_____
1982 300D-gone---sold to a buddy
_____
1985 300TD
270,000 miles
_____
1994 E320
not my favorite, but the wife wanted it

www.myspace.com/mikemover
www.myspace.com/openskystudio
www.myspace.com/speedxband
www.myspace.com/openskyseparators
www.myspace.com/doubledrivemusic

...oh please please please let me 'prove' my value by allowing me to skim the best and most motivated, while weeding out the special needs and problem behavior clients. Every business plan loves a scenario where risks are minimized and benefits are nearly guaranteed. Skimming and cherry-picking are nice ways to achieve those goals. So I guess one can live with skewed results if they helped to further an ideological endgame, eh?

So, Z, what's your great solution to the black hole that we call a public educational system?

The whole premise that public education is a black hole is ludicrous. Our public education system is so localized, you can't characterize it as one mass, for one thing. Each district is different, offering different strengths and weaknesses. At the same time, our colleges and universities seem to be filling up quite nicely with people from this system who can do college level work, and graduate. If anything, it is cash starved in its ability to prepare our youth for a technological world, and sapping cash from them in the form of vouchers certainly isn't going to help that.

My own experience has been the real problem is parents more interested in their own little worlds, taking no interest in their child's educational experience, and that is as bad if not worse among the rich as it is the poor. Most of the parents in this country think a school's main role is to be a babysitter for their kids so they don't have to be bothered. The solution is for parents to quit *****ing and get involved in their schools and for taxpayers to be a little more willing to fork over some cash.

Ah, yes!....the classic liberal solution to every problem! Throw someone else's money at it!

I do agree with the first part, but it's only a beginning...."Getting involved" in a flawed system is only going to yield minimal results.

Mike

__________________
_____
1979 300 SD
350,000 miles
_____
1982 300D-gone---sold to a buddy
_____
1985 300TD
270,000 miles
_____
1994 E320
not my favorite, but the wife wanted it

www.myspace.com/mikemover
www.myspace.com/openskystudio
www.myspace.com/speedxband
www.myspace.com/openskyseparators
www.myspace.com/doubledrivemusic

Zeit...
I've heard that argument before. I've also heard that there are actual cases of areas where it has been refuted in practice' the private schools accepted "the worst" of the children, and still got better results than the government schools. Sorry, I can't quote chapter and verse; perhaps someone else can.
Isn't it time to seek a solution rather than decry the problem? It seems to me that much of the downturn has come after the teachers decided to form a union, a union that obviously has, as its highest priority, the employment of its members.
Why is it that competition is feared? We all benefit from competition in many areas. What is so different about the education industry?

Speak for yourself. Fix your district, not mine. 86% of HS graduates in my district go to college, of those, around 60% graduate. That's a pretty good record if you ask me. How does a ****ty public school system do so well?

These numbers are close to the norm for most neighboring districts. Not too shabby.

__________________
You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows - Robert A. Zimmerman

And your objection to hyphenated names is nothing more than a call to ignore the unlevel playing field in this country. If you and MM think that our culture does not give white people advantages not enjoyed by other groups, I would ask you and MM to tell us when those unfair advantages were removed and to tell us how they were removed. Certainly you agree that black people did not get fair treatment in the 1950s. So what changed? Was it the 1964 Civil Rights Act that made everything better? If so, MM, why isn't that enough for you to abandon your libertarian ways? I mean, if a federal statute can eliminate centuries of oppression, then lets have more government. Right?

And somehow you know me well enough to make this assertion?

I've never said that the world was perfect. However, the BEST possible way to keep racial divides at a low boil, is to KEEP shoving the differences in people's faces, and playing the "poor unfortunate soul" game with it.

Personally, I don't care what colour your skin is, what religion you practice, whether you're gay or straight, ugly or pretty, fat or skinny, or whatever "sub culture" or ethnicity you lay claim to. It is still up to the different communities to work together to overturn old obsolete stereotypes, and make their own lives better. The government is NOT going to do it for them - no matter how many grandios promises they spew in the name of conning the publics vote.

That's a fair comment. Your comment about the use of hyphenated names was a generalization, as was my response. I should have worded it that way, but I am still unclear as to why you and MM claim that hyphenated names are bad. Exactly what harm do they cause? Can you point to any specific examples? Or give the circumstances under which the use of a hyphenated name has changed the way someone acts?

If I follow your comments correctly, you do not deny that we have an unlevel playing field, but you think the government should not try to be part of the solution to that problem. I would think that is exactly the sort of problem the government should try to address. Meanwhile, people should do their best to be self-reliant.

Hopefully, this will give you an idea of what I'm trying to say regarding hyphenated names.....

Take for example, Jehovah's Witnesses. People gripe about them constantly. The reality is, that it's not their interpretation of the bible that bothers other people (except religious zealots, but then they're guilty of the same probem). It's the fact that they actively attempt to push their version of their religion on others.

Hyphenated names more or less, fall under the same guise. Personally, I couldn't care less if you or your ancestors came from Africa, Asia, India, Iran, Austrailia, or wherever else. Most other people could care less where you came from either. The hypenated name can be, and often is seen as flaunting your ethnic roots. Ethnic roots have nothing to do with the character of the person. Pair this up with ranting about how downtrodden your "people" are, while a notable number of them sell dope, steal, engage in gang warfare, and top all of it off by acting in a racist manner themselves, keeps this divide alive.

The government will never "fix" the problem, because they don't want it fixed. First, they lose a campaign point when they are out there begging for votes. Second, a populace not squabbling with each other, will become more aware of the actions within that government. A unified population becoming aware of just HOW dirty the halls are in government would spell disaster for the bodies in power.

Finally, even if the gov't DID care, how can anybody expect them to suddenly find the holy grail of "fixing the problem," when they screw up everything they touch?