M119 STAND ALONE ON FACTORY INJECTION IN A VINTAGE CAR - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

whipplem104 · #31 01-16-2017, 09:42 AM

The rear end ratio is stored in the tcu. And 96' DAS is married to the ecu. It is very different than the 97' up stuff in what is going on but it is more than starter interupt. But isn't the car being talked about a 92' So it is really just the ecu, and it needs some other stuff but it is analog. They need wheel speed from ABS and if it is an ASR car you can just dump that and get an ecu without ASR. IF you want other stuff to work like ISC then you would need that module but I think you could put a standard throttle body on it and it would work just fine. IT is simple enough to test this out.

Roncallo · #32 01-17-2017, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 97 SL320

That era system just disabled the starter and I don't think it talked to the engine computer. The 97 + DAS X metal single button flip key has a transponder that talks to the DAS box behind the instrument cluster then the DAS box talks to the ME enabling fuel.

Starter worked just fine. It would crank and even start and run for about 1 second. Look at my build for the part where I am trying to start it. Search for thread "M120 into 560SL". It shows the wires that needed to remain connected to DAS and the ones that I cut so it could never be armed again.

Roncallo · #33 01-17-2017, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whipplem104

The rear end ratio is stored in the tcu. And 96' DAS is married to the ecu. It is very different than the 97' up stuff in what is going on but it is more than starter interupt. But isn't the car being talked about a 92' So it is really just the ecu, and it needs some other stuff but it is analog. They need wheel speed from ABS and if it is an ASR car you can just dump that and get an ecu without ASR. IF you want other stuff to work like ISC then you would need that module but I think you could put a standard throttle body on it and it would work just fine. IT is simple enough to test this out.

Correct my experience is with ME. Other variations will have there own compatibility issues. We kind of got off the 92 when I suggested he opt for the 722.6 with a later engine compatible with the 722.6. No need for later engine if he goes with your trans control unit.

97 SL320 · #34 01-18-2017, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whipplem104

The rear end ratio is stored in the tcu.

That's what I had thought, however the one part number / calibration across the cars I mentioned clouds the issue. I will be swapping modules around this summer

And, a 97 C class could have come with 3 channel ABS or 4 channel ABS / ASR. The 3 channel car has a speed sensor on the diff pinion and the 4 channel at each rear wheel. Somehow a control unit needs to account for the differences. I'd think the 3 channel car would be immune to a rear ratio change unless a module somewhere is comparing front wheel speed to pinion speed.

There is absolutely no way the trans computer is looking at front wheel speed to determine shift timing as there will be too much room for error due to tire size / road slippage

rwd4evr · #35 01-19-2017, 02:58 AM

LOVING all this info from all you way more experienced guys. i guess i found one of the best (easiest) year cars to use for a swap really. Now i gotta get the thing! I know i can make it fit, now i'm getting a little more comfortable with the idea of the electronics. Thank you!! and keep it coming!

(side note) to throw a wrench into and help my plans, i just got a 99 mercury mountaineer for free. Fired up after a year of sitting. I haven't driven it yet though. It was my friend's, who passed away tragically. His dad gave it to me. Just a second old vehicle he had but used occasionally with out issues for the most part. V8(basically a 5.0 mustang motor) 2wd 117000 miles, great tow truck. The problem is it has the rear axle i want to use in my fintail, EDIS system and all the rest of the stuff,(WRENCH>) but the v8 in it makes decent power and bolts right to a t5. It's gonna be so tempting to say f#ck it and throw it in one of my cars. Easy front sump conversion(unlike a chevy), Easy to make tons of power too. Must remember i need a good tow truck/parts hauler!!!

Raffaelli · #36 01-19-2017, 08:30 AM

The mountaineer 5.0 would be a great motor to swap in. The m119 is a nice motor and everything, but it's not an easy swap to put into something. It's freaking huge.

If you do think about using the ford motor and a t5. Do yourself a favor and get a a9l PCM and matching fox body harness. 10x easier and prolly 50hp more than the explorer junk.

duxthe1 · #37 01-19-2017, 09:30 AM

Infinitely better idea.

whipplem104 · #38 01-19-2017, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 97 SL320

That's what I had thought, however the one part number / calibration across the cars I mentioned clouds the issue. I will be swapping modules around this summer

And, a 97 C class could have come with 3 channel ABS or 4 channel ABS / ASR. The 3 channel car has a speed sensor on the diff pinion and the 4 channel at each rear wheel. Somehow a control unit needs to account for the differences. I'd think the 3 channel car would be immune to a rear ratio change unless a module somewhere is comparing front wheel speed to pinion speed.

There is absolutely no way the trans computer is looking at front wheel speed to determine shift timing as there will be too much room for error due to tire size / road slippage

They are just coded differently. The part number has nothing to do with it. Same for ecus. Vehicle specific data is scn coded to the ecu.
The traction system gets wheels speed from the driven wheels, whether it is 2 or 4 wheel drive and sends it to the tcu via CAN. The tcu averages them together and then multiplies to the diff ratio to calculate output speed of the transmission for ratio detection. There are a couple of vehicles, ie, early Sprinters and G wagens, that use a direct speed sensor on the back of the transmission to measure output directly.

By the way I do not think that any w202 chassis cars have a speed sensor in the diff. They all have them in the wheels. Whether they have 722.6 or not.

rwd4evr · #39 01-19-2017, 03:18 PM

Oh brother. Talk about a wrench in the works. The SEL I was looking to get seems to be a 95. But I'm not even sure of that. It's far so I can't just go look it over. The title is whacked out too, look at the VIN. 1melm5807sa634049. Guessing reconstructed or something. Not familiar with Maryland DMV. It is only 400$ but I'm kinda tight on space and cash right now. And if I'm getting an open deck block I would rather have a 722.6 strapped to it to make it make sense to buy.

Far as a 91 pcm making 50 horse I doubt that. A fox body was never rated more than 225. Maybe with a retune or something. But the explorer has different cams and valvesprings than a mustang. Gt40p heads are similar to gt40 but valve train is slightly different. It's rated at 215 HP 288ft lbs. I need a tow vehicle more than a hot rod right now. But the wheel base and width of the mountaineer are almost identical to the w108 280sel 4.5 basket case I have. Hmmm. Body swap? That would be a sweet tow car/truck. I'm jacking my own thread. DOH! Please keep the m119 info coming. It will happen at some point.

Raffaelli · #40 01-19-2017, 04:18 PM

It's not a foxbodys 5.0 H.O. It would be closer to a 93-95 cobra with a more aggressive tune. 50hp easy.

97 SL320 · #41 01-19-2017, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whipplem104

They are just coded differently. The part number has nothing to do with it. Same for ecus. Vehicle specific data is scn coded to the ecu.
The traction system gets wheels speed from the driven wheels, whether it is 2 or 4 wheel drive and sends it to the tcu via CAN. The tcu averages them together and then multiplies to the diff ratio to calculate output speed of the transmission for ratio detection. There are a couple of vehicles, ie, early Sprinters and G wagens, that use a direct speed sensor on the back of the transmission to measure output directly.

By the way I do not think that any w202 chassis cars have a speed sensor in the diff. They all have them in the wheels. Whether they have 722.6 or not.

I have a 1997 C280 non ASR that has 3 channel ABS and a 722.6. Delivery date 10 21 1996 ( this should be when it left the factory not delivered to dealer according to info I had gotten in the past. )

There are not any speed sensors at the rear wheels and not even a tone ring on the axle / CV, I just went out and checked. ( The hub carrier casting might have a place to put a speed sensor, can't get under car enough to see. )

I had looked into adding ASR and found that rear wheel speed sensors / tone rings / 4 channel ABS unit / ABS-ASR module and wiring would need to be added - changed. My concern was that an issue would arise with the ECU / TCU stopping progress. I'm holding off doing this swap until I come across a complete car to lift parts from.

This summer I'll swap TCUs around and report.

With an early Sprinter / G wagon the TCU should be immune to rear ratio changes though some other module might throw a code. The sticking point here is the TCU may see a code from another module and go into limp.

What about late 90's / early 00 ML ? I think they have a 2 speed transfer case and if they are using wheel speed sensors that needs to be accounted for in both ranges.

rwd4evr · #42 01-20-2017, 05:51 AM

"If you do think about using the ford motor and a t5. Do yourself a favor and get a a9l PCM and matching fox body harness. 10x easier and prolly 50hp more than the explorer junk."

Oh a a9 pcm? Not a '91 pcm Not real familiar with fords. I'm a GM muscle car guy. I thought you meant get the computer from a 1991 mustang. What's the best car to grab one from?

Raffaelli · #43 01-20-2017, 08:30 AM

A9L is the PCMs flash number (most guys assume it's the part number). It's 88-92 manual trans foxbodys iirc. eBay or a local racing page will have what you need if you go down that road. I'll be happy to help on all those little details if you do.

rwd4evr · #44 02-16-2017, 04:27 AM

Well it looks like i may end up with this m119.970.12.003528 powered 500sel anyway.The vin comes up 92 but title is wacky. Its vin is clean and says it was historic registered a while ago. its dirt cheap and is worth more in parts if its an issue with dmv. its not stolen. i wonder if i can put the m119 on an early simple m117 k-jet fuel distributor, with its original dual distributor ignition system? they are the same fuel distributer as the 6.9 k-jet so it can fuel a big engine. i have an EDIS on my mountaineer too. It will run some how.

rwd4evr · #45 02-19-2017, 11:39 PM

i got The Beast yesterday. 1992 500sel built 7/91. So it is the better closed deck, heavier internal parts block i'm fairly certain. That is the first car being towed on a dolly that unsettled fonzi"s ridgeline at all. it is freakin HEAVY! going at highway speed from one highway to another it kinda pushed the rear end around a bit. i havent tried to start it yet since the rad is out of it and it will gush trans fluid. But it started and ran awhile back when Fonzi looked at it. now the adventure begins. Anyone know of a good service manual source for a early w140?