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  #1  
Old 10-21-2016, 02:33 PM
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Mercedes W201 190 V12 engine swap

Hello everybody

at first a little introduction
i'm from addicted to cars and everything that has something to do with it
and most it. is German and is a Mercedes!!

I have a youtube page and the last 6 mnd i'm really putting more content on it. also doing car reviews and test of most german cars. about 60% is mercedes. Also just starting my new project!!

i have a mercedes 190 2.0 4 spd from 1984 that i just as a daily driver for a few years. about 6 mnd ago i bought a w140 600 sel as a donor car
and i'm going to build the M120 massive V12 engine in the 190 engine bay
it will be a full build

here is the first video
hope your going to like the idea as much as i do
a 190 with a v12

regards, Johan

i want to put the video here but i can only place the link is this possible to put the video in the topic?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubMBXgtrYrc

Last edited by johan84; 10-22-2016 at 02:31 AM.
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  #2  
Old 10-21-2016, 05:39 PM
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custom efi injection system?
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  #3  
Old 10-21-2016, 05:41 PM
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I would find an old 170 body 48-53 ish from the 50's and strip the fenders off and make a v12 streetrod
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  #4  
Old 10-21-2016, 11:26 PM
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The M120 is a big, heavy, slow revving turd.

The 201's saving grace is nimbleness.

Combining the two will be like mixing milk and grapefruit juice.

Literally any other engine would be a better swap.


Sorry to be that guy but sometimes you need to hear the truth.
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90 300TE 4-M

Turbo 103, T3/T04E 50 trim
T04B cover .60 AR
Stage 3 turbine .63 AR
A2W I/C, 40 LB/HR
MS2E, 60-2 Direct Coil Control
3" Exh, AEM W/B O2
Underdrive Alt. and P/S Pulleys,
Vented Rear Discs, .034 Booster.
3.07 diffs 1st Gear Start

90 300CE 104.980
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  #5  
Old 10-22-2016, 01:12 AM
johan84's Avatar
Nothing is impossible !!
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by duxthe1 View Post
The M120 is a big, heavy, slow revving turd.

The 201's saving grace is nimbleness.

Combining the two will be like mixing milk and grapefruit juice.

Literally any other engine would be a better swap.


Sorry to be that guy but sometimes you need to hear the truth.
I did my homework about this engine And it is only 23 kg heavier then a m103 so heavie really not
a m103 or m104 has a iron engine block a m120 v12 is fully aluminium

Slow revving? a v12 has 2 times as much ignition every 2 rotation then a 6 cilinder so it would never be
slower revving then a 6 cilinder or 8 cilinder
because of long final gearing of the diff ( 2.65 ) it look like a slow revving engine but it produces 490nm already on
1000rpm and it goes up from there to 580nm stock form

but thanks for your opinion but not going to do something with it still going to build it

Going to use standalone ecu

Last edited by johan84; 10-22-2016 at 02:30 AM.
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  #6  
Old 10-22-2016, 10:04 AM
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Sure the M120 looks good on paper, but is a real world disappointment. As 20 year MB tech, I don't know anyone in the industry that would let you give them a M120 powered car.

Yes it is a slow revving engine. More isn't always better. The friction and pumping losses in it are significant and the inertial losses are massive. Torque, yes... snappy desire to rev, no.

Your 23 KG estimate is woefully low. You'll find the M120 over 100 KG heavier than the 201's heaviest optioned engine and 170 KG heavier than your current engine.

Compare your 201 tie rods to the 140 tie rods. Now envision having to re-engineer every mechanical part of the car by that factor. Then realize you'd be doing it for a lazy 390 hp.

Hey, its your time and your money. I'm not trying to leave the party with the girl you're interested in, I'm trying to warn you she's a dude.
__________________
90 300TE 4-M

Turbo 103, T3/T04E 50 trim
T04B cover .60 AR
Stage 3 turbine .63 AR
A2W I/C, 40 LB/HR
MS2E, 60-2 Direct Coil Control
3" Exh, AEM W/B O2
Underdrive Alt. and P/S Pulleys,
Vented Rear Discs, .034 Booster.
3.07 diffs 1st Gear Start

90 300CE 104.980
Milled & ported head, 10.3:1 compression
197 intake cam w/20 advancer
4 ignition advance
PCS TCM2000, built 722.6
600W networked suction fan
Sportline sway bars
V8 rear subframe, Quaife ATB 3.06 diff
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  #7  
Old 10-22-2016, 10:45 AM
Stretch's Avatar
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duxthe1 View Post
...

Hey, its your time and your money. I'm not trying to leave the party with the girl you're interested in, I'm trying to warn you she's a dude.
V funny
__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
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  #8  
Old 10-22-2016, 01:36 PM
johan84's Avatar
Nothing is impossible !!
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duxthe1 View Post
Sure the M120 looks good on paper, but is a real world disappointment. As 20 year MB tech, I don't know anyone in the industry that would let you give them a M120 powered car.

Yes it is a slow revving engine. More isn't always better. The friction and pumping losses in it are significant and the inertial losses are massive. Torque, yes... snappy desire to rev, no.

Your 23 KG estimate is woefully low. You'll find the M120 over 100 KG heavier than the 201's heaviest optioned engine and 170 KG heavier than your current engine.

Compare your 201 tie rods to the 140 tie rods. Now envision having to re-engineer every mechanical part of the car by that factor. Then realize you'd be doing it for a lazy 390 hp.

Hey, its your time and your money. I'm not trying to leave the party with the girl you're interested in, I'm trying to warn you she's a dude.

thanks again. but still going to do it
and like i said i did my homework
if you don't like it then don't read the topic
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  #9  
Old 10-22-2016, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duxthe1 View Post
The M120 is a big, heavy, slow revving turd.

The 201's saving grace is nimbleness.

Combining the two will be like mixing milk and grapefruit juice.

Literally any other engine would be a better swap.


Sorry to be that guy but sometimes you need to hear the truth.
so --whats the v12 the Pangi Zonda has in it?
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  #10  
Old 10-22-2016, 11:18 PM
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There is someone on the net that used a Toyota V12 into some sort of MB. They added a turbo and promptly pushed the connecting rods out the bottom of the motor.

google " toyota v12 in mercedes " brings up a few but I can't find the one I was looking for.
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  #11  
Old 10-23-2016, 02:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panZZer View Post
so --whats the v12 the Pangi Zonda has in it?
yes

first version of the zonda has also the M120 v12 engine later on the used the M275 bi turbo v12 but also the Zonda R is having the M120 v12
the frist zonda has the 6.0 ltr version later on it is bigger 7.3 ltr
the zonda R has a 6.0 engine
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  #12  
Old 10-23-2016, 02:29 AM
johan84's Avatar
Nothing is impossible !!
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: The Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 SL320 View Post
There is someone on the net that used a Toyota V12 into some sort of MB. They added a turbo and promptly pushed the connecting rods out the bottom of the motor.

google " toyota v12 in mercedes " brings up a few but I can't find the one I was looking for.
i have seen something about that project but did not know that the broke the engine
the engine is a 5.0 1GZ-FE v12
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  #13  
Old 10-23-2016, 10:04 AM
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I found it, here is the turbo V12 Toyota guy

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/performance-paddock/288708-190e-sportline-project-now-v12-gt4088r-t56-14.html

Also have a look at this.

M120 V12 Kit Car finally runs.

And there is someone on out list that inserted the M120 into a R107 so do a search for that.

Something to think of on the MB V12 , it was quickly introduced to take a run at BMW and provide the smoothness that a V 12 offers so I wonder if development was cut short. I don't think that just going to an aftermarket FI system is going to cure all ills, but I do expect the stock MB system to be tuned more towards squishy luxury performance.

Frustratingly, the M104 that is the basis for the M120 seems to do pretty well thought is a bit soft below 2,500 RPM making it curious why the M120 is considered a RPM dog.

The Zonda engine is AMG tuned so there could be some hope.

At some point I'll get going on my R129 track day car project, I had dismissed the M120 due to weight an am going to stick with a 3.2 M104.

Is the early 2000's twin turbo MB V12 a M120 or something different? This might be a more direct route.
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  #14  
Old 10-23-2016, 10:35 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Somewhere in the Netherlands
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He hasn't finished it yet but there's this one with a Jap V8 engine too

1uz-fe 190e swap project - Mercedes-Benz Forum
__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!
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  #15  
Old 10-23-2016, 04:50 PM
johan84's Avatar
Nothing is impossible !!
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by 97 SL320 View Post
I found it, here is the turbo V12 Toyota guy

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/performance-paddock/288708-190e-sportline-project-now-v12-gt4088r-t56-14.html

Also have a look at this.

M120 V12 Kit Car finally runs.

And there is someone on out list that inserted the M120 into a R107 so do a search for that.

Something to think of on the MB V12 , it was quickly introduced to take a run at BMW and provide the smoothness that a V 12 offers so I wonder if development was cut short. I don't think that just going to an aftermarket FI system is going to cure all ills, but I do expect the stock MB system to be tuned more towards squishy luxury performance.

Frustratingly, the M104 that is the basis for the M120 seems to do pretty well thought is a bit soft below 2,500 RPM making it curious why the M120 is considered a RPM dog.

The Zonda engine is AMG tuned so there could be some hope.

At some point I'll get going on my R129 track day car project, I had dismissed the M120 due to weight an am going to stick with a 3.2 M104.

Is the early 2000's twin turbo MB V12 a M120 or something different? This might be a more direct route.
i have seen a red 107 with a v12. pretty tight fit also

Mercedes started in 1986 with the development of the m120 v12
so the had 4 years.
the oem ECU is a to complex system that uses 2 ecu for each cylinder bench and a control unit only for the throttle body's

the oem ecu's are working as to 6 cilinder engine with everthing on it self
all the sensor are double like crank position cam position coolant sensor
4 knock sensor 2 for each bench.
the throttle body works with a master and a slave that is to expensive and to complex to use and to control
so a aftermarket ecu will be better in every way. i discussed this with some experts and i would not be a problem

the M120 is build in the S-class from 1991-1998
and up to 2001 in the 129 SL-class.
the biturbo engine came in 2003 i think it is a M275 5.5 v12 3v per cylinder
complete different engine
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