Very interesting, this thread has become.

At Pep Boys here in town for $1.49 a gallon, cheaper than fancy drinking water. Tomorrow I'll stop by and pick up a gallon. It really does exist.

__________________
Mike Tangas
'73 280SEL 4.5 (9/72)- RIP
Only 8,173 units built from 5/71 thru 11/72

'02 CLK320 Cabriolet - wifey's mid-life crisis

2012 VW Jetta Sportwagon TDI...at least its a diesel

Non illegitemae carborundum.

GAWD! I love it when JCE posts on a thread. I always have to get up a brain sweat and do research!

Unfortunately, this may be the longest single post ever made on one thread in this or any forum on the internet...

CJ: You wanted to know the scoop, and you just said, "Very interesting, this thread has become."

So, here's the skinny so far:

JCE - The first website you reference on copper tubing makes some strong points regarding pure water effect on copper. But antifreeze/coolant is half of the automotive application mixture, and that substance already has serious corrosion inhibitors as part of its chemical make-up, thereby negating any deleterious effect that the pure water may have on metal. York even says so, as you quoted: "If it is used as a heat transfer fluid, e.g. in air conditioning equipment, an appropriate inhibitor, such as benzotriazole should be added and the inhibitor level checked periodically to avoid corrosion." But there's more to a cooling system than just copper...

Second, we're not talking about straight distilled water, "heavy" water for the Manhattan Project, or even triple distilled water. We're mainly talking about adding steam distilled water that is sold in markets for use in the home to our coolant in a 50/50 mix. And, according to the owner of Aqua Technology (whose website I already posted in my last commentary), when water is steam distilled, it is purified to the extent that it leaves behind virtually all bacteria, microbes, trace minerals, salts, contaminants, and even heavy metals that may have been present in it, producing just simple H2O. "Steam distillation relies on the physical principle of gravity to separate heavier inorganic salts from rising water vapor. As the water is boiled in a distiller, the steam rises, leaving salts (sodium, lime, etc), heavy metals (lead, mercury, etc), bacteria and other dissolved materials behind. The pure steam vapors rising from the boiling water then enters a "heat exchange" system which cools the steam vapors back into water, distilled water, drop by drop." Further: "It is no wonder the U.S. Navy and ocean-going vessels and submarines around the world choose steam distillation to recover completely pure drinking (and bathing) water from raw sea water."

Next, the other website that you reference has to do with frogs and amphibians, and makes the following chilling claim "If a frog is exposed to distilled water on a consistent basis, then it will eventually die. (BTW: the same goes for people (takes a while) and fish, the latter being the subject of a rather odd running joke in my biology class "The exploding goldfish")".

Where do these people come up with this sci-fi B.S.?

Now let's hear from some real medical experts:

""To the best of our knowledge, there would not be any adverse health effects from the continued ingestion of distilled water." May 17 1985 American Medical Association Division of Personal and Public Health Policy Jack A. Bell - Assistant Director

"Distilled water should be used if the usual water supply (tap or bottled) contains more than 20 mg. of sodium per liter." American Heart Association (1986)

"Water Hardness" is the underlying cause of many, if not all, of the diseases resulting from poisons in the intestinal tract. These (hard minerals) pass from the intestinal walls and get into the lymphatic system, which delivers all of it's products to the blood, which in turn, distributes to all parts of the body. This is the cause of much human disease. "Water Hardness" is inorganic minerals in solution (in water). When these minerals enter the intestines in drinking water, there is an immediate reaction between them and the fats, oils and fatty acids present, causing precipitation of inorganic calcium, magnesium, iron and so on---to form new, insoluble compounds." Dr. Charles Mayo (Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minnesota)

"Distilled water is the greatest solvent on earth. (It is) the only water that can be taken into the body without damage to the tissues. "What we as scientists and the public have never realized is that minerals collected in the body from water are all inorganic minerals, which cannot be assimilated (digested) by the body. The only minerals that the body can utilize are the organic minerals (from fruits and vegetables). All other types of minerals are foreign substances to the body and must be disposed of or eliminated. "Today, many progressive doctors prescribe distilled water to their patients. All kidney machines operate on distilled water." Allen E. Banik, M.D. from his book "The Choice is Clear"

All of these quotes (and plenty more) are available at the Aqua Technology website: http://www.aquatechnology.net/index.html.

Distilled Water, Good For You, Good For Your Car...

I could go on, but I think that's more than enough to dispel the "exploding goldfish" theory. Hey, don't blame me, people. I didn't bring the damn frog to class...

Now, what were we talking about? NO! Don't tell me, AH, YES! MB coolant versus the "green stuff"! So, what the hell's the difference, you say, between roja e verde? Plenty!

Here's some data from Peak Antifreeze's site: http://www.peakantifreeze.com :"In many US and Japanese antifreeze formulas, including those produced by Old World Industries, phosphate is added as a corrosion inhibitor. European vehicle manufacturers, however, recommend against the use of phosphate containing antifreeze. The following will examine the different positions on this issue to help judge the pros and cons on phosphate inhibitors. In the US market, a phosphate inhibitor is included in many formulas to provide several important functions which help reduce automotive cooling system damage. The benefits provided by the phosphate include:

1.) Protect aluminum engine components by reducing cavitation corrosion during high speed driving.
2.) Provide for corrosion protection to ferrous metals.
3.) Act as a buffer to keep the antifreeze mixture alkaline.

This prevents acid build-up that will damage or destroy metal engine parts. European automobile/ truck producers feel that these benefits are achievable with inhibitors other than phosphate. Their main concern with phosphate containing products are the potential for solids drop-out when mixed with hard water. Solids can collect on cooling system walls forming what is known as scale. This concern comes from the fact that European water is much harder than water in the US. Because phosphate "softens" water by forming solids of calcium or magnesium salts that can drop-out of solution, there is potential for cooling system blockage. The phosphate level in most US and Japanese antifreeze formulas do not generate significant solids. Furthermore modern antifreeze formulations are designed to minimize the formation of scale. The small amount of solids formed present no problem for cooling systems or to water pump seals.

For now, Old World Industries believes that phosphate will remain a primary ingredient for cooling system protection. Still, as a good corporate citizen, we continue research on other inhibitor types that will provide the same benefits without phosphates. To show this commitment, Old World Industries is now marketing a heavy-duty antifreeze that incorporates a phosphate free inhibitor package. This new product is called Fleet Charge Antifreeze. It is a universal formula that passes both heavy-duty and automotive specifications. In most US and Japanese vehicles, you can use either a phosphate free or phosphate containing antifreeze during the warranty period. However, phosphate containing antifreeze can void European OEM warranties. Old World Industries advises that only recommended antifreeze types be used in these vehicles during the warranty period to ensure complete coverage." Re-read that last sentence...

And they also say: "Recently the antifreeze market experienced a major advancement, the development of the Extended Life Coolant (ELC). In this type of coolant organic acid salts replace traditional corrosion inhibitors. This new organic acid technology (OAT) represents several major improvements over "conventional" antifreeze technology. As with any new technology, introduction of this new type of antifreeze has caused some confusion.......

Old World Industries manufactures two extended life antifreezes. PEAK Extended Life antifreeze is an orange colored automobile antifreeze that provides 150,000 miles of unsurpassed protection. Final Charge antifreeze is a red colored heavy-duty antifreeze. Because it is organic acid based, Final Charge antifreeze does not require SCAs when used in heavy-duty applications. Elimination of SCAs greatly reduces the cost and variability associated with heavy-duty cooling system maintenance.

As with any new technology, extended life coolants have caused some confusion. This confusion will wane as consumers become more familiar with this technology. Extended life coolants represent a major advancement over conventional coolant technology. Over the coming years this technology will replace conventional antifreeze and become the industry standard."

When they say "Extended Life Coolants", they are talking about another type of technology that Mercedes pioneered...

The head of marketing and sales at Old World Industries, makers of Sierra (Propylene Glycol) and PEAK (Ethylene Glycol) coolants, told me that Mercedes was way ahead of the pack with their GL-5 (Glysantin) coolant, and that all major auto manufacturers will be offering "phosphate free" coolant in the future with their cars. Saturn and GM already are, and Chrysler will be shortly, followed by Ford, Honda, etc. etc. He also told me that ALL green coolant sold in this country, with the exception of Sierra, are Phosphate corrosion inhibitor base coolants. Only the orange, red and pink ones use Organic Acid Technology as their corrosion inhibitors. Unfortunately, the coolant from Mercedes can only be made in Germany, as BASF holds the patent for GL-5 (Glysantin) and won't license it.

NOW FOR THE RADIATOR WATER>>>Manny, Moe, & Jack...
Why do we mix water with our coolant? Because coolant isn't a great heat conductor by itself, but water is. Why not use straight water you say? WHAT? Haven't you been paying attention? Any water by itself will cause corrosion and scaling that will plug up your cooling system, and besides, water will freeze at or below 32 degrees F. That's why we use antifreeze/coolant. Why do we change it? Because the corrosion inhibitor will have deteriorated after time, allowing the nasty water to start forming scale and corrosion unless we do change it.

Mike Tangas Was Right!!!!

Radiator water in a bottle? I didn't believe it myself folks, but O.W.I. actually makes it! It's sold by PEP Boys nationwide under the name, PEAK Battery & Radiator Mineral Free Water! Part # PKZ-003. But, this really should be no surprise, because most antifreeze and coolant comes with a 50/50 pre-mix available for use, including O.W.I.'s PEAK Ready Use, and Fleet Charge 50/50 "Fleet Charge Pre-Diluted 50/50 Coolant/Antifreeze is a 50/50 mixture of Fleet Charge Coolant/Antifreeze with deionized water, providing freeze protection down to -34 degrees F boil over protection to +265 degrees F.

Hell, even Zerex has one: "Zerex Ready to Use Antifreeze Coolant Zerex Ready to Use is a 50% by volume mixture of Zerex Antifreeze Coolant and a high quality demineralized water. The demineralized water is low in chlorides and hardness ions to help minimize the corrosion, scale and deposits often associated with common tap water.

Ready to use, no need to add water.
Protects all cooling system metals including aluminum.
Prevents cold weather freeze-ups and hot weather boil-overs.
Excellent high temperature aluminum protection
Helps prevent corrosion and rust damage.
Contains a high quality defoamer and will not harm gaskets, hoses, plastics or original vehicle paint.
Ethylene glycol based.
Works in passenger cars, light trucks and heavy duty vehicles
Patented low silicate formula

Zerex Ready to Use has been tested and meets or exceeds the following industry coolant specifications: General Motors GM1899M, GM1825M; Ford ESE-M97B44-A; Detroit Diesel 7SE298; Cummins 90T8-4; TMC of ATA RP-302B.

In addition, it meets or exceeds the following list of "ethylene glycol base engine coolant" recommendations: ASTM D3306, D4985; SAE J1034, J814C, J1941; Federal Spec. A-A-870A."

For additional technical info on PEAK Products, you can go to their website, call their head technician, Tom Cholke at: 1-800-289-7234, or email him at: tcholke@oldworldind.com.

For additional informtion on ZEREX, go to: http://www.valvolive.com.

As for me, I think that I'll either use the Sierra, PEAK Extended Life, or stick with the Mercedes formulation...

Goodnight, Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are...

[Edited by longston on 01-16-2001 at 12:20 AM]

__________________

Scott Longston
Northern California Wine Country...
"Turbos whistle, grapes wine..."

I am currently deciding which member of this forum is going to get an honorary degree in anti-freezology.

I nommy-nate you, for posting this thread in the first place, hon!

__________________

Scott Longston
Northern California Wine Country...
"Turbos whistle, grapes wine..."

but I was in error on the manufacturer. Peak - Prestone, what the hey, they both begin with "P" .

Now to figure out if the Havoline red AF is the same stuff as MB AF. Seems I remember reading that Havoline is making the MB stuff for MBUSA???

__________________
Mike Tangas
'73 280SEL 4.5 (9/72)- RIP
Only 8,173 units built from 5/71 thru 11/72

'02 CLK320 Cabriolet - wifey's mid-life crisis

2012 VW Jetta Sportwagon TDI...at least its a diesel

Non illegitemae carborundum.

Hello again, Longston:
Well, we seem to again be saying the same things in different ways. The 2 references I posted were merely the first 2 non-water manufacturing groups that discussed water in Laymens terms. I didn't want to delve deeply into physical chemistry or cell physiology on an automotive forum. Apparently I only muddied the waters, so to speak.

I don't want to wrap up a lot of bandwidth debating a topic which aligns water distillation industry and homeopathic medicine supporters versus govt. agencies and scientific bodies, with endless lists of publications on each side. There will always be a dissenting expert opinion to every statement by either group! I think it best if we rank this one right up there with cell phone health effects, organic vs. commercial vegetables, global warming effects on the environment, and French vs California red wines!

I like bottled drinking water or low mineral content, pH neutral water in a 50-50 mix with MB anti-freeze, but probably wouldn't loose a lot of sleep if MB antifreeze were taken off the market and I had to use Prestone. I like my references/sources/publications that led me to this mixture, everyone else is free to research their own "solution" . In Vino, Veritas!

__________________
John

2003 Firemist Red/grey leather SL 500
2015 Palladium Silver/black mbtex GLK 350
1987 Smoke Silver/burgundy mbtex 300E Sportline (SOLD)

Click to see 87 300E

Well, I just know from my own personal experience that it did not work. There are two reports saying that distilled h20 is not good, but I just checked the National Radiator Associtation or something like that. They said if the tap h20 is questionable, then use distilled h20. I'll leave it up 2 u guys. However, I've changed my ways. Hope this helps.

Here is one of the two.

http://hsb.baylor.edu/html/easley/autofaqs/antifreeze.htm

The other report is from an interview from a chemical engineer. I can't find it right now, but I am not just saying this b/c I want to sound off the wall or even b/c of the URL. I am telling you from personal experience, like I stated before. It's your car. Find out all the facts, before doing this. You've been warned. It is not as easy as it sounds. Also, you can find out the report from the Nat'l Radiator Assocition from search engine. I am tired. Talk later.

We are all seeking the facts on this subject. I greatly respect the membership's opinions and experiences being shared to help further our education on this, as well as any other subject on this forum.

We should always make a point to click on the links provided by other members in their posts, and to review the information available at those links.

If you haven't already done so, the information on distilled water at the Aqua Technology website should be of great interest to anyone seeking a greater insight on the subject.

__________________

Scott Longston
Northern California Wine Country...
"Turbos whistle, grapes wine..."

Hi

The MB coolant, part # A 000 989 08 25 (Made in Germany) states Nitrite-free (325.0) Color is Blue.

I stopped and picked up a jug, Peak battery and radiator water, mineral free. States for batteries and radiators; mix 50/50 for max protection in radiator, fill battery to fill line. Has nothing listed as far as ingredients but is clearly labeled 'not for human consumption'.

Nothing listed about the process of how it became mineral free.

__________________
Mike Tangas
'73 280SEL 4.5 (9/72)- RIP
Only 8,173 units built from 5/71 thru 11/72

'02 CLK320 Cabriolet - wifey's mid-life crisis

2012 VW Jetta Sportwagon TDI...at least its a diesel

Non illegitemae carborundum.

First of all, I going to go out on a "Lim", and say that whatever you have that is "Blue" is most likely to be windshield solvent in a MB coolant bottle. Don't put that stuff in your radiator! As far as I know, there isn't and hasn't ever been a "Blue" coolant. Also, the part number you reference has been superceded by Q 103 0002.

Next, Havoline makes coolant for GM under the name "DEX COOL", which is actually trademarked by GM. For more info, you can go to : http://www.havoline.com. Here's a quote from their website:

"General Motors Corporation has recognized Havoline ® Extended Life Anti-Freeze/Coolant DEX-COOL®* as a breakthrough coolant, issuing GM's first DEX-COOL®* license for 5 year/150,000 mile protection.

Extended service intervals are made possible through a patented organic acid corrosion inhibitor system which eliminates the need for silicates, phosphates, borates, nitrites, and amines. The elimination of these additives is significant because many of them are abrasive to water pump seals."

As GM and Daimler Chrysler are competitors, I seriously doubt that MB would be using GM's coolant manufacturer.

MB coolant contains Glysantin as a corrosion inhibitor in a ethylene glycol base. Glysantin is manufactured by BASF, who has a patent and trademark on Glysantin. To check this out, you can go to: http://www.basf.com.

__________________

Scott Longston
Northern California Wine Country...
"Turbos whistle, grapes wine..."

The red Havoline I bought will simply go in the Suburban on it's next flush. Next trip by the dealer I'll get the "real" thing (and I don't mean Coca-Cola). That and the fancy water should do real well, especially since we have very, very hard water here. So hard, when taking a shower, it's like someone dumping a load of gravel on you .

__________________
Mike Tangas
'73 280SEL 4.5 (9/72)- RIP
Only 8,173 units built from 5/71 thru 11/72

'02 CLK320 Cabriolet - wifey's mid-life crisis

2012 VW Jetta Sportwagon TDI...at least its a diesel

Non illegitemae carborundum.

I just completed my flush/fill & thermostat change and I had to add the coolant is actually orangish in color. It looks sort of red in the bottle.
The jug syas, "Mercedes Benz Antifreeze/Anti-corrosion agent"
Oooooh!!