Cerma anyone - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

alabbasi · #1 07-27-2008, 07:17 PM

I ran a search on the forum and found the following topic that discusses Cerma.

My first long distance trip with the 1996 E320

I just recently put this stuff into my 79 US spec 6.9 and was also quite surprised at how much smoother my engine ran afterward. M-100 engines are not really that smooth in my experience so it was noticeable.

Has anyone else tried it?

halman2228 · #2 07-29-2008, 10:22 AM

Al -

Where did you get it?

Sounds like interesting stuff... I wonder if it has any effect on heat transfer as well?

David's post said it was some weeks away from distribution. Any idea who might sell it down here?

Best regards,
Kevin

P.S. - 'twas good meeting you at the Centerville Run. Its always neat to finally put a face with a name

alabbasi · #3 07-29-2008, 10:52 AM

I got it from David on one hot Sunday afternoon after he spent some time 'undoing' some work that was done on my car (thanks David!).

As far as distribution goes, from what I understand, the plan is not to sell it retail but i'll see David today to drop my car and will ask him to respond to this thread.

Kestas · #4 07-29-2008, 11:08 AM

Considering the extensive efforts NVH engineers spend on getting cars to run smoothly, I wonder why auto companies don't simply fire all these engineers and add Cerma to each vehicle?

I'm extremely skeptical of this product.

alabbasi · #5 07-29-2008, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kestas

Considering the extensive efforts NVH engineers spend on getting cars to run smoothly, I wonder auto companies don't simply fire all these engineers and add Cerma to each vehicle?

I'm extremely skeptical of this product.

Yep, that's OK. I was skeptical too but it did quieten the engine and smoothen it out.

lkchris · #6 07-29-2008, 11:30 AM

There are no liquid solutions to mechanical problems

Kestas · #7 07-29-2008, 11:50 AM

Quiet and smooth are not good enough for me. By my curious nature I need to know what is the product made of and what is the mechanism that makes it work. I read through some of the links:

"Cerma ceramic metal treatments utilize the metal of the current conventional engine design, Cerma then impregnates the metal with micro particulates of ceramic lubrication, Cerma then requires the existing carbon & acids within the engines oil to complete the transformation of Cerma products to a smooth ceramic seal within the metal back bone of your engine."

The vernacular of the above statement sounds suspiciously familiar, like something I've heard from other snake oil salesmen, and not from someone who is technically proficient... those are very hollow words.

alabbasi · #8 07-29-2008, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lkchris

There are no liquid solutions to mechanical problems

I have no idea what that means

I didn't report a problem with my car. I just said it runs quieter and smoother after adding this solution into the engine.

However, In my opinion, there are PLENTY of additives that 'prevent' mechanical problems.

For example:

Lead in gas would be the first that comes to mind as it prevents valve seats from wearing.
Detergents is included with all gas these days to keep your fuel system clean.
Detergents is included in any modern motor oil brand to help keep your engine internals clean and sludge from building up (try running your engine on non detergent motor oil for a couple of years and see how well it runs).

Now I'm not naive to think that if I have a blown head gasket, or worn pistons that this will fix any of these problems. It would be hard to suggest that it would fix anything that's broken. But the engine is quieter and smoother which is impressive.

It would be nice to get another opinion from someone who has tried and can report on his or her experience. Obviously not many have.

david s poole · #9 07-30-2008, 09:57 AM

cerma is a very interesting organic chemical.it is actually liquid glass lacking 3 things to turn it to solid [carbon,heat and water]despite the great engineering of mercedes benz,the quality of the metal surface of the bore and rings is one of being porous.this allows some of the combustion gas to go to the sump.utilizing cerma,which penetrates the metal surface to depth of 6 microns,over a distance of 700-1000mls will seal the combustion chambers[because it doesn't harden completely immediately] as the two surfaces lap in the best possible fit.now you have very very even compression over all cylinders.you don't have to be a rocket scientist to realise that power has now been increased.but the big improvement is that you now have access to higher torque earlier in the rpm band.[remember torque gets the car down the road, horsepower maintains the torque] the less rpm used the less fuel used. now that combustion chambers are sealed some more great things follow.heat is contained,utilised and sent down the exhaust [instead of heating the oil and bottom end of the motor]so the engine cooling system doesn't have to work so hard,gases are more completely burned and a check of the tail pipe at your friendly inspection station will reveal about 50-60% less polutants than before.the application of cerma will also all but eliminate engine harmonics[my car felt as though a cadillac suspension had been fitted to it as i never realised how much engine harmonics affected normal driving down the freeway.finally this is a one time treatment that will dramatically extend the life of the engine[i hope the manufacturers don't send luigi after me]

Kestas · #10 07-30-2008, 10:25 AM

David, as you describe it, this compound claims to seal all the nooks and crannies of the combustion surfaces. I should point out that these nooks and crannies hold the oil that provides the lubrication on the cylinder walls. The surfaces are engineered into these surfaces by design engineers, and reformed during engine rebuild by machinists who hone the surface to break any glaze. A smooth finish is undesirable for cylinder walls.

The "quality of the metal surface of the bore and rings is one of being porous" is a good quality. This product works against the "great engineering of benz" and all other engine manufacturers.

Except for elevated temperature diffusion (~1600°F) and certain plasma coating techniques, nothing can chemically penetrate a steel surface. So the claim of Cerma penetrating steel to 6 microns is absurd.

david s poole · #11 07-30-2008, 10:57 AM

i guess that's why some of the nascar engine builders use ceramic but in a diff form.

david s poole · #12 07-30-2008, 11:02 AM

i personally have seen and witnessed the penetration of cerma into metal surface and the only way to remove it is with a high speed carbide grinding tool. by the way seeing as you are from motor city MI your name isn't luigi is it?

Kestas · #13 07-30-2008, 11:37 AM

I don't think you've witnessed penetration of Cerma into metal. You may have seen cerma adhere to the surface. I study materials and surfaces in great intimate detail. I see them in the microscope and in a polished and etched cross section at high magnification. There's very little that I haven't seen in steels and coatings in my 30+ years of peering at them through the microscope. I have more than a feel for these things. I can categorically state that ceramics will not penetrate metal.

I've seen future development of cylinder wall technology. It still involves providing microreservoirs on the surface to hold oil lubricant. If a smooth wall was more beneficial, future technology would be moving in that direction. Glazing over the wall with ceramic is a recipe for disaster. Lack of lube will bring the onset of scuffing and galling, resulting in premature failure of the pistons/cylinders.

TheDon · #14 07-30-2008, 11:48 AM

Every Mercedes Benz manual clearly states to not use any form of fuel or oil additive... period.

This is just another one of those mpg scams and crap...

Kestas · #15 07-30-2008, 12:17 PM

Some people just want to believe, regardless of fact or logic.