+1

Exactly what I was going to say, just worded much better and from someone more reputable

edit: quote snipped.

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68 280SL - 70 280SL - 70 300SEL 3.5 - 72 350SL - 72 280SEL 4.5 - 72 220 - 72 220D - 73 450SL - 84 230GE - 87 200TD - 90 190E 2.0 - 03 G500

Nissan GTR - Nissan Skyline GTS25T - Toyota GTFour - Rover Mini - Toyota Land Cruiser HJ60 - Cadillac Eldorado - BMW E30 - BMW 135i

Yes, my younger brother was Product Planner, All New Vehicles, for Lexus at that time. I remember it well, how successful they were at bringing over a Japanese-market Toyota and re-branding. Good show.

The 211(and even the 210) is more refined, more powerful, and definately nicer to drive. I don't agree that it is as well engineered however, too much emphasis on FEM/CAD/etc. to minimize weight, cost, and material. Still very good cars, just didn't have the longevity built in that the earlier models had.

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Gone to the dark side

- Jeff

Try again VW/Audi introduced the TDI in 1989. But I guess we didn't specify gas or diesel.

-J

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1991 350SDL. 230,000 miles (new motor @ 150,000). Blown head gasket

Tesla Model 3. 205,000 miles. Been to 48 states!
Past: A fleet of VW TDIs.... including a V10,a Dieselgate Passat, and 2 ECOdiesels.
2014 Cadillac ELR
2013 Fiat 500E.

He has his wires crossed altogether.

The actual culprit of this was Juergen Schrempp, when he ran Mercedes and tried to make money by making everything cheaper. Look at the difference between the 123 and 124 models and those which followed.

Schrempp almost got canned as MB chief before he became Daimler Chief, because of this. So he elevated Prof. Dr. Huebbert to run MB engineering and that's when things improved until the good professor retired about 2001-2.

I found this out through my conversations with German engineers who came to Chrysler's Auburn Hills facility, aka CTC, during that period.

He may be the boss and he may be German, but they hated his penny-pinching for bigger bigger profits and bonuses.

Fortunately, he's totally out of the picture, although Dieter hasn't been much better. But then neither is Wolfgang Bernd.

Andreas Renschler, if he's still around, might be a better CEO, because he is more hands-off and lets engineers do their job.

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Strelnik
Invest in America: Buy a Congressman!

1950 170SD
1951 Citroen 11BN
1953 Citroen 11BNF limo
1953 220a project
1959 180D
1960 190D
1960 Borgward Isabella TS 2dr
1983 240D daily driver
1983 380SL
1990 350SDL daily driver alt
3 x Citroen DS21M, down from 5
3 x Citroen 2CV, down from 6

Paul,
Did you work at Auburn Hills? If so, when?

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Strelnik
Invest in America: Buy a Congressman!

1950 170SD
1951 Citroen 11BN
1953 Citroen 11BNF limo
1953 220a project
1959 180D
1960 190D
1960 Borgward Isabella TS 2dr
1983 240D daily driver
1983 380SL
1990 350SDL daily driver alt
3 x Citroen DS21M, down from 5
3 x Citroen 2CV, down from 6

accepted and apology offered. Actually in Europe I got Polo SDI and no hybrid approaches in simplicity and fuel economy to this 700kg, 55 hp diesel.

Just a partisan point to make.

The design of the W124 was derived from the W201, which is the most "over engineeered" modern day Mercedes.

I had the opportunity to speak to a W211 owner while at the local dealership a couple of months back. I believe the car in question was either a 2004 or 2005 E320 which he had purchased new. He went on to tell me that the car has spent a lot of time in the shop for various electrical gremlins including the dreaded SBC system. The car had racked up closed to 170,000 km since he drove it long distances for business. He told me he had preferred his former 1992 300E for its mechanical and electrical simplicity and reliability.

I guess we can agree that the newer cars will be better is aspects of safety, technology and refinement, but these things do not replace the high standard engineering mindset that the older cars were built upon. To say that a newer Benz is a fantastically better car is only true in a few aspects.

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1989 300CE

The W124 is indeed one of the best MB's ever.....if I had a collection of C124, W124, C126, and W126, I'd be set for life.

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-diesel is not just a fuel, its a way of life-
'15 GLK250 Bluetec 118k - mine - (OC-123,800)
'17 Metris(VITO!) - 37k - wifes (OC-41k)
'09 Sprinter 3500 Winnebago View - 62k (OC - 67k)
'13 ML350 Bluetec - 95k - dad's (OC-98k)
'01 SL500 - 103k(km) - dad's (OC-110,000km)
'16 E400 4matic Sedan - 148k - Brothers (OC-155k)

Maybe a T124 in there for hauling?

__________________

Gone to the dark side

- Jeff

I once worked for a major multi-national engineering based company with over 100,000 employees. The managers and directors at nearly every level had a technical background.

One of the directors once told me that all managers and directors must be chosen from engineering background. Sales ,marketting or bean counters were not to be allocated to major responsibility with decision making ability.
Why? Because they sold futures. - The fastest road to a downhill slide.
That company has since been metamorphed into a sales oriented company and is now a fifth of the size it was 20 years ago - and struggling.

Unfortunately that is the modern way.

The Lexus paved the way for the fickle minded mass buyers and their hankering for gadgets over outright engineering.

Some say that the modern M.B.'s are much better cars than the older generations - not in engineering terms though. Newer vehicles might be deemed "better to drive" and appear to be safer, however they don't have that "engineered like no other car feel".

In another respect. The engineering company I referred to above manufactured electro- mechanical equipment which had a forty year lifetime gaurantee. With proper maintainance this equipment would last for up to 100 years. Compare that to the modern turnaround of capotal equipment.

I've seen the bean counter management up close and personal!

I got in on the ground floor of a niche software company that was founded and built by an Electrical Engineer. His management and business skills were marginal, but effective enough. His understanding of our technology and how to promote it was outstanding. We built the company at a minimum 100% annual growth rate for about 8 years. At that time the owner sold out and the venture capital bean counters came in.

After that we never had a CEO with ANY industry experience whatsoever. Worse yet, he started bringing in his own upper management people with even less industry experience. His ongoing mission was to prepare for the next Board of Directors meeting. These guys drove the company into oblivion costing lots of jobs and lost careers.

There is an old movie that is VERY interesting and dramatizes this. It is entitled "Executive Suite." It is from about 1953. In it, a bean counter is trying to take over the company and truly believes that it's all about dividends, ignoring any reality regarding the need for developing and building a quality product. I highly recommend the movie if you want to understand what happened to MB. They show it on TCM quite often.

BTW, I had a GREAT career in that company and had some really good years and luckily managed to put away some money. I'm now in a boring job and just marking time until retirement. I was lucky to have that experience in my career.

Well, having owned my 124 since new, now 22 years, I readily admit to my bias. I have close friends with almost all forms of MBs, including the 210, 211 and 212. What beautiful, pleasurable vehicles to sit in and to drive. Despite my bias, the differences with my 124 are easily recognizable. But what's also obvious, is that MB is following the herd in turning cars into rolling arcades. It's a triumph of gadgetry over engineering. Of course, I'll be proved wrong if, in 20+ years, these models are rolling strong, as mine is, with nary so much as a light bulb inop. Testimonial done!

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1988 California version 260E (W124)
Anthracite Grey/Palomino
Owned since new and still going strong and smooth
MBCA member

Past Mercedes-Benz:
1986 190E Baby Benz
1967 230 Inherited from mom when she downsized
1959 220S Introduced me to the joys of keepin' 'em goin'

There are only 10 kinds of people in the world--those who understand binary and those who don't

actually bmw did it with their 1987/88 750il

strelnik hit the nail on the head with Juergen Schrempp

i remember when the 190/300e debuted, just shook my head at all the plastic and cheapness compared to past models

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1989 300ce smoke silver / brazil, in a constant state of flux ~~~

He is right my 99 w140 is made cheaper than my w126.Fabric headliners versus tough w126 vinyl

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1999 w140, quit voting to old, and to old to fight, a god damned veteran, deutschland deutschland uber alles uber alles in der welt